Is natural selection occurring at the fertilization level? Do certain sperm possess genetic traits making them more likely to attach to and fertilize an egg?

kingdavecako · 2012-05-25T12:04:20.137591+00:00

Is there anything a male can do to improve the relative health and fitness of a certain batch, if he knew he were trying to conceive at that time?

2achariah · 1 day

Stasik in particular had some things to say about people who talk shit about UM anonymously. He'd rather hear it to his face.

ddshroom · 1 day

Great, now I forgot what the word "knowing" means.

2achariah · 2 days

Spoke to them at the S2 in Philly and they were not fond of the bort, to put it lightly.

gomer11 · 2 days

What exactly is the goal?

The goal is the cessation of suffering in this lifetime.

the motivation is purely to be happier in this life.

Yes. And that motivation grows in power when there is the view that this is my only life and only chance.

I am an agnostic operating under the assumption that it might be real. The Buddha was right about everything I have been able to observe so far, so I see no reason why he couldn’t be right about rebirth.

Einstein was right about general relativity but I don't care what he thinks about the afterlife. What I know the Buddha to be right about has nothing to do with a special theory of survival after death, or invisible realms or whatever, that kind of information isn't even in the same ballpark as the Buddhist teachings I know to be true or accurate.

What I know the Buddha to be right about concerns cognitive training in this lifetime producing benefits in this lifetime. It does not follow for me that he is right about everything outside of this scope.

I am not a Buddhist. Just a dude using some Buddhist stuff to try and achieve the highest form of happiness I can conceive of, now. Does that work better for you?

gomer11 · 2 days

Cheers!

(don't worry, it's non-alcoholic)

gomer11 · 2 days

I am not saying it is the sole reason, I am saying it is capable of being motivation whereas no-rebirth is not capable.

If the goal is time-sensitive, can't you see how less time would be more motivating? I'm not saying it needs to be for you, but it is for me.

then the possibility of rebirth would be even greater motivation

It would be greater motivation for me except for the fact that when you introduce concepts like "beginningless and endless time" and "manifold lives" I start thinking that this is such a rarefied and difficult goal that there's just no point in even trying, i.e. whatever motivation should be coming from the idea of some greater release is mitigated by a perceived exponential increase in difficulty.

Without rebirth then regardless of anything you have ever done, you are free of dukkha forever upon death.

Does this matter at all? Rebirth is either true or it isn't. If it's true, and I reject it, it isn't any less true. Whatever state of affairs we are in right now is the product of whatever the truth happens to be. And yet I practice, you practice, and I still haven't see any significant difference between us on a level that affects whether or not one of us could wake up today.

If you've already rejected it your mind is not open to it.

Guess you'll have to take my word for it. I could say that if you've already accepted it, you're in the same position.

gomer11 · 2 days

Very admirable! I'm glad there are a few of us looking out for the numberless sentient beings. Can't say it's much of a motivating factor for me honestly, maybe one day my insight will be advanced enough to inspire taking up a cause of that magnitude.

Here's how I see no-rebirth:

This is my only life, how should it be lived?
More than just being crappy, it's totally unsatisfactory and unfulfilling
Extinguishing greed, hatred, and delusion is a way out of suffering
I'll pursue that, because there are no other options. I cannot delude myself into thinking anything else would be worthwhile.
I might die before I achieve this, but that's not nearly enough to deter me. And because my time of death is uncertain, this is the impetus to not waste any time.

The best part is, if I succeed, I "cut the cycle at the root" as you say, even though I wasn't worried about it.

If I fail, I've still practiced well, and it sounds like some other being will benefit, even though I wasn't worried about them.

As far as your list, in my perspective every one of those bullet points is prefaced with "Well it's speculation at this point because I don't know for sure, but..." Starting with that sort of shaky, unknowable foundation is distracting to me. If I can find a way to practice without it, especially if it introduces no significant detriment to my practice, then I'd rather do that personally.

Edit: I guess you could say my first bullet point is speculation too. But my speculation motivates and inspires me, your speculation discourages, distracts, and disempowers me. My speculation doesn't really concern itself with anything more than I can experience now, yours introduces more unknowns than I feel to be necessary for great practice, today. It's a simple cost-benefit calculation, and your numbers don't add up for me, that's all. I see how they could add up for you though.

gomer11 · 2 days

the point that you practice because you recognize some form of dukkha in this life, not because there is no rebirth.

Correct. It's the same reason you practice as well. If you accept yes-rebirth then you are using your imagination to envision endless suffering, which is an extrapolation based on your experiences in this lifetime. You don't practice based solely on yes-rebirth, because you wouldn't even be able to imagine yes-rebirth unless you were suffering now. The dukkha we recognize in this lifetime forms the basis of anything we do.

If there is rebirth then you are immensely fortunate to be reborn as a human when the dhamma has been expounded by a Buddha, and it is only from this human existence that you can hope to escape cyclic existence dominated by dukkha. The actions taken in this lifetime are of the utmost importance if there is rebirth.

Personally, I don't need that sort of mythology to make this life important. It's just totally unnecessary for me. The dhamma is already top priority in my life, and saying "don't forget there's the possibility of rebirth in lower realms!" does nothing for me. Even if it's true, I'm already dedicating my life to practice because if this is my only life, then the dhamma is the obvious choice! If it it's some distant and nebulous possibility obscured at some point eons from now, then I don't feel so bad about transgressions and laziness. Personally.

You shouldn't be speculating about it, you should either accept it or be agnostic about it (if you're a Buddhist) and continue practicing. Trying to reinterpret it is pure speculation, you are saying "Well what if it was really meant this way. . ." If you don't like speculation leave it be.

Shoulda, woulda, coulda, it's what I do. The more I thought about this yesterday the more I felt that of course I was agnostic about it - I doubt that I could ever really cling fully to ANY belief ever again. The conditioned and impermanent nature of all things is just too obvious at this point me, there's no going back. Accepting it based on faith but keeping an open mind to new possibilities (e.g. vystril, above) is the same position I hold by rejecting it based on logic, reasoning, and science, but keeping an open mind to new possibilities.

I'm not trying to reinterpret the Buddha's teaching at all, I'm just observing that though rebirth is a part of the Buddha's teachings, it is not salient in the context of daily practice. This is my one and only point.

gomer11 · 3 days

Still gathering those suttas depicting realization, but here's an excerpt from the same book, which talks about meditative realization of dependent co-arising. This is written by a monk for his Ph.D. thesis on the satipatthana sutta so I'd hope he knows what the heck he is talking about, though I concede its possible he doesn't!

The discourses often describe dependent co-arising with a model of 12 sequential links. This sequence traces the conditioned arising of dukkha back to ignorance. According to the Patisambhidamagga, these 12 links extend over 3 consecutive lifetimes. The 12 links applied to 3 lifetimes probably assumed increasing importance in the historical development of Buddhist thought, as a way of explaining rebirth without an eternally surviving agent. Although the sequence of 12 links occurs freqently in the discourses, substantial variants can be found. Some of these start with the third link, consciousness, which moreover stands in a reciprocal relationship with the next link, name-and-form. These and other variations suggest that the mode of explanation based on 3 lifetimes is not the only possible way of approaching an understanding of dependent co-arising.

In fact, the 12 links are but a particularly frequent application of the general structural principle of dependent co-arising. In the Paccaya Sutta (SN), the Buddha introduced this important distinction between the general principle and its application. This discourse speaks of the 12 links as dependently originated phenomena, while "paticca samuppada" refers to the relation between them, that is, to the principle.

The distinction between the principle and the twelve links as one of its applications is of considerable practical relevance, since a full understanding of causality is to be gained with stream-entry. The distinction between the principle and application suggests that such an understanding of causality need not necessarily require a personal experience of the 12 links. That is, even without developing the ability to recollect past lives and thereby directly experiencing those factors of the 12 links that supposedly pertain to a past life, one can still personally realize the principle of dependent co-arising.

[bunch of examples of suttas where paticca samupadda is realized moment to moment - I can list if you want em]

gomer11 · 3 days

Yes that's what I was saying. Or were you talking to drainos?

gomer11 · 3 days

But that's like saying the stove is only hot in future lifetimes, never this one!

My rationale is pretty much what lvl5ll said: no-rebirth makes the Fire Sermon vividly real to me, yes-rebirth introduces a temporal context that makes my actions and decisions in this lifetime seem unimportant.

Plus, it introduces speculation that distracts me.

Plus, I don't like the idea of relying on some other being to get done what needs to be done.

(I've always hated group work.)

gomer11 · 3 days

Does believing in no-rebirth, does that actually motivate you to practice

Yes

Does believing in yes-rebirth, does that actually motivate you to practice

No

Guess that's pretty much it right there?

gomer11 · 3 days

What I do have a problem with is people either out and out misrepresenting the Buddha saying "oh he didn't say it, it was just for the backward people of those times who didn't know better" when it's a essential key to understanding the view the Buddha was trying put forth; or people trying to reimagine and rewrite the suttas so that it fits nicely within their 'modern sensibilities'.

I don't doubt the Buddha taught it. What I do doubt is that a practitioner would need to explicitly concern themselves with the validity of rebirth to go from, say, clueless dumbass to arahant, in one lifetime.

Do you need to believe in rebirth to practice mindfulness? Certainly not, but I think after a point if you still cling to that aversion (just like any other one) it's going to do you a disservice.

Fair enough. I like to tell myself that I cling to this position for the purpose of debate, to really see how much water it holds - test its limits and weaknesses. Lets hope that's true for my sake.

Are there? All the ones I've come across reference it in some manner or another.

I just read a book that referenced many, I'll collect some and post them later in an edit.

And I agree with everything else you posted.

Edit: Suttas I promised, will add as I find more:

MN147: Focus on the aggregates and sense media leads to awakening.

MN146: 500 nuns realize stream entry or better after hearing a teaching on the impermanence of aggregates, sense media, etc.

ddshroom · 3 days

Dhammapada (73-75):

The fool seeks undeserved reputation, precedence among monks, authority over monasteries, and honor among householders.

"Let both laymen and monks think that it was done by me. In every work, great and small, let them follow me" — such is the ambition of the fool; thus his desire and pride increase.

One is the quest for worldly gain, and quite another is the path to Nibbana. Clearly understanding this, let not the monk, the disciple of the Buddha, be carried away by worldly acclaim, but develop detachment instead.

Edit: Picked a clearer translation.

gomer11 · 3 days

One thing that 'fundamental' Buddhists really miss when they critique the views of those who do not see the salience of rebirth within the context of daily practice is that the Buddha taught the cessation of multiple forms of dukkha, many (most) of which can easily be interpreted to concern subjective experience in this lifetime.

Here's yet another list of tangentially related and pointless shots at rebirth that will get me, you, and everyone else nowhere. Let's do it anyway for fun!

How come there are so many suttas where the full awakening of a practitioner is depicted without any reference to dependent origination or the twelve nidanas? Is it implied that whatever method they used, whatever realization they had, included an implicit realization of whatever aspects of dependent origination are necessary for awakening? If so then it's of no concern what I believe about rebirth, as there are other paths that will lead me to the same destination and are more suited to me.
As far as I can see, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but rebirth for you is nothing more whatsoever than a conditioned belief, as you have no direct insight into past lives. My rejection of rebirth is of the same substance, as I have no insight either, one way or the other. So what makes Buddhism pointless for me? Is it that you have Right View and I don't? When I read MN9 it seems to me that Right View is concerned with the actual realization itself, and has nothing to do with your provisional beliefs, no matter aligned with the sutta. Or is Right View not concerned with the actual realization, but instead just asks for a simple surface-level academic understanding and faith in a philosophical position?
So: Today, here, now, as I go about my day and when I sit later - not in a philosophical fantasy land - how does the validity or invalidity of rebirth influence your practice? Let's get real specific here. When you establish sati, or develop jhana, or investigate dhammas, do you preface it with "Okay, now let's not forget that rebirth is real, and practice well with that in mind! The philosophy doesn't make any sense without it!" - and do something completely different than me?

The Buddha really should've included dukkha-bhassa-samvattanika-viññana - the pain of debating rebirth - in his dukkha list, because man does it seem like that's the only thing causing a serious amount of cognitive dissonance and intellectual suffering for me lately. Yall have basically convinced me that Buddhism is pointless without rebirth, so I'm on the verge of packing it in and looking elsewhere for the end of suffering.

Black_Irish · 3 days

Any other similar books to recommend?

west99 · 4 days

Boredom is important in meditation practice; it increases the psychological sophistication of the practitioners. They begin to appreciate boredom and they develop their sophistication until the boredom begins to become cool boredom, like a mountain river. It flows and flows and flows, methodically and repetitiously, but it is very cooling, very refreshing. Mountains never get tired of being mountains and waterfalls never get tired of being waterfalls. Because of their patience we begin to appreciate them. There is something in that. I don't want to sound especially romantic about the whole thing, I am trying to paint a black picture, but I slipped a bit. It is a good feeling to be bored, constantly sitting and sitting. First gong, second gong, third gong, more gongs yet to come. Sit, sit, sit, sit. Cut through the artery until the boredom becomes extraordinarily powerful. We have to work hard at it. (Chogyam Trungpa)

and

The actual slitting takes place when you begin to feel the boredom of the practice - real boredom. "I'm supposed to get something out of Buddhism and meditation. I'm supposed to attain different levels of realization. I haven't. I'm bored stiff." Even your watcher is unsympathetic to you, begins to mock you. Boredom is important because boredom is anti-credential. Credentials are entertaining, always bringing you something new, something lively, something fantastic, all kinds of solutions. When you take away the idea of credentials, then there is boredom...(Chogyam Trungpa)

Erra0 · 4 days

My employer offers a 401k but no matching. What would be the benefits of using it versus a Roth IRA?

thenaturalmind · 4 days

What do these people recommend for a basic retirement plan then?

thenaturalmind · 4 days

Because the account is with a bank, and their options for other funds don't seem as good as what Vanguard offers, from what I remember. I'll have to take a closer look.

thenaturalmind · 4 days

I opened the first one in 2010 and put $2k into the CD.

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