Would you buy my jerky?

bitcoinjerky · 2012-05-25T20:26:54.298963+00:00

I'll buy your jerky as long as its made from humanely raised meat and contains no nitrates.

Just be careful of the government's goons.

toSTONEiGO · 2012-05-25T15:57:16.399808+00:00

I, personally, take a different view, which I think is more consistently applicable:

All contracts (agreements, commitments, etc) are voluntary.

Any contract is voluntary only so long as both/all parties continue to agree to it. This may sound counter intuitive, but this is why contracts have clauses describing how to handle the breach of the contract by either party and, more importantly, why the remedy is not simply "the breaching party goes back to agreeing to the contract".

Therefor selling oneself into slavery is impractical because the moment you change your mind, the original agreement is no longer voluntary and while the other party may have some contractual recourse, they cannot morally compel you to comply with the original contract.

Therefor it is perfectly reasonable to say that during an act of agression, the aggressor is actively disavowing their own right against agression, but the moment that they stop aggressing they may reassert that right. I suppose it could be argued that they must explicitly (through word or deed) reassert their right against aggression, but I personally that ceasing the aggression pretty well implies that reassertion.

toSTONEiGO · 2012-05-25T08:38:15.045612-07:00

Which what who?

mibsacnt · 1 day

I don't identify with the OP, to the best of my knowledge, while I do not remember my childhood well, it was not acutely traumatic. Rather, I empathize with the OP, their childhood sounds shitty regardless of the particulars of this potential memory.

Making a factual statement which accurately responds to the OP's question cannot be giving "attention due to the possibility of repressed memories" if that is the case then ever response on this thread is that and nobody should have responded by your standards.

Yes, I do claim some level of knowledge, I agree with you there -- I'm a person who is interested in psychology and has studied this particular topic in some depth due to my interest, in particular, developmental psychology.

I see your point regarding actively encouraging the OP to explore this particular potential memory. I should have specifically emphasized that they should explore their history with an open mind and empathy and not themselves expect to find anything, because they could then self implant a false memory.

On your last point, I can see your reading of it, but I read it as a more general statement that unprocessed memories in anyone can lead to problems and that processing them is how to heal from them.

I think I understand the "axe of war", similar to "having an axe to grind".

mibsacnt · 1 day

Hmm, I think that you are viewing the OP (and those in similar situations) as mere automata as opposed to living thinking capable human beings.

I'm glad to see you refer to it as your "axe of war" :).

I do not agree that my post could potentially reenforce a false memory.

I also do not think that I did "everything in [my] power to avoid possible harm". I'm just some guy on reddit. I made a post in good faith based on my somewhat educated opinion and explicitly called out my position as not a psychologist. I specifically avoided saying "OMG YOU WERE TOTALLY MOLESTED GO TO THE POLICE" because that would be blatantly irresponsible, but I didn't avoid being supportive of the OP's exploration of their past experiences because it is my belief that avoiding that exploration is just as harmful as creating a false memory. Stuck between two potential harms, the way only to do everything possible to avoid harm would be to do nothing and I absolutely refuse to live under that paradigm. I will make my best judgment and I will review my judgments based on science, but I will not be so afraid of making mistakes that I say nothing when I believe I have something potentially helpful to say.

I think that you dramatically overstate the ease of implanting false memories and I think that the current scientific consensus on the topic backs up that position which is what I tried to demonstrate (at times poorly) by linking in articles on the topic. I'll definitely review this conversation with people who are psychologists and who I trust.

toSTONEiGO · 1 day

I like to think of it this way: If someone is currently aggressing against you, they are actively disavowing their own right to be free from aggression.

To me that's why violent retribution is a violation of the NAP and defense is not.

mibsacnt · 1 day

I agree, loosely, that overly supportive help, which thereby reenforces a potentially false memory or a negative experience is potentially very damaging.

mibsacnt · 1 day

I read every word. Peace!

mibsacnt · 1 day

I didn't define behavior as observable. I defined it as something specific. If you call "thinking" a behavior then yes, I was reenforcing that behavior, but it's unimportant and irrelevant. You are trying to assert that I reenforced some a very specific thought - the thought of a repressed childhood sexual trauma, but that's not what my original comment did. Notice the words that I used: I said "it is possible that you have partially repressed some painful memories", a factually correct statement, and then I said: "tells me that you have an unprocessed memory lurking back there", perhaps a too strong statement, but it is my opinion that it's a reasonable deduction based on what the OP told us. Either way, what I "reenforced" was the value of the OP as a human being and the value of her empathizing with the real traumatic events that she experienced regardless of the reality of any repressed or suppressed memory. I also suggested ways to do so, which would potentially help her clarify her memory for herself.

You read a post by a person who is wondering if they may not remember a traumatic experience from their childhood, or may have suppressed parts of that memory. The literature (and posters other than myself on this thread) support the idea of suppressed memories. PTSD is based on the idea of suppressed memories. Entire fields of psychology exist around helping people process suppressed memories. This is different (and we can agree importantly different) from "recovering" "repressed" memories. The recovering repressed memories people have been demonstrated to be dangerous quacks, and somehow you are lumping me in with them because I empathized with the posters remembered past and the possibility of a worse suppressed past.

If you were merely cautioning against the risks of being overly supportive in certain cases, why did you reply to my comment at all? Your responses throughout have absolutely wreaked of knee jerk unthinking reactionism. Instead of considering the specific words I used in my original comment, you reacted to the empathetic and supportive words because you've been trained, like Pavlov's dog, to bark when you see those words.

The unrelated study got in there because I was rushing to back up my words with citations and I skimmed the study incorrectly, which is why the quality of my study links improved over time. I did myself and my position a disservice by rushing.

Please note that to this point, you still haven't pointed to a single study or paper which backs up your position, you have not refuted any of my claims beyond pointing out that I included an irrelevant study in one of my posts. Go back and check. You have not "shot down" my claims, you haven't even responded to them beyond rote contradiction with no reason or evidence.

Please do not pretend at being a scientist, you don't understand scientific discourse or reasoning.

mibsacnt · 1 day

You cannot simply consider a potential memory, be it false or real, a behavior. If the OP, or I, had used specifics and I had reenforced those specifics, then the comparison to behaviorism might hold. EVEN SO, positive behaviorism requires long term reenforcement to take hold. In another study I read while researching for this conversation they specifically analyzed the effect of repetition on implanting SPECIFIC inaccurate facts into an otherwise factual memory (a much easier task than fabricating a memory from whole cloth) and found that repetition was important to the results.

Your failure to understand the science on this topic is manifest and actually I feel somewhat embarrassed for you. Not only do you not understand this particular topic but you also don't understand the scientific method and scientific reasoning in general.

I have presented logically clear arguments, went and sought out reference material to backup my claims and then honestly admitted when one of the studies that I found turned out not to support my position.

At what point have you done anything other than make assertions (which to me are absurd and to you are intuitive, but it doesn't matter how intuitive or counterintuitive they are in the world of science) without any factual basis whatsoever.

Let's examine the record of this conversation to see who behaves like an angry high school student and who tries to have a marginally adult conversation:

I make a post supporting the OP and offering her some ideas and resources to help her figure out what she may or may not be remembering, based on my best understanding of the psychology involved and mentioning that I am not a psychologist.

You respond by making a statement with no logical basis or citation, and included a proxy-swear in your initial response.

I responded in a somewhat sharp manner, using the term fearmongering (which I maintain is an accurate way to describe what you've been doing), and you responded in a condescending tone, using all caps and other generally childish and unfortunate ways of communicating.

Which one of us is communicating like an angry high schooler again?

I hope when you read this later you see how badly you represent yourself.

mibsacnt · 1 day

Wait, my position is counterintuitive!? You are the one arbitrarily, without any scientific evidence, asserting that by supporting a person in their exploration of their own mind in general it is possible to spontaneously generate false memories. That assertion is not only counterintuitive, it's counterfactual, counterscientific and blatant fearmongering in response to the high profile cases of false memory implantation which have occurred in recent years. The false memory cases ALL contained specific suggestive questions.

Get a clue.

mibsacnt · 1 day

You're right, that first link doesn't support my position, so I'll provide more:

http://memlab0.eng.yale.edu/~kjm/1996_Zaragoza_Mitchell_PsychSci.PDF

Here's one which demonstrates that in creating false memories suggestion and plausibility both play a role:

http://www.cgu.edu/include/Event_Plausibility.pdf

I notice you haven't provided any citations or source other than your own irrational fear-based beliefs to backup your own position.

mibsacnt · 1 day

Wrong and fearmongering.

I'm trying to find some better citations, but until then, try this:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3143501/

Specifically the part where false memories are a combination of specific suggestions, etc.

http://www.psych.ucsb.edu/research/meta/publications/11,21/recovered%20memory%20of%20abuse.pdf

Another citation specifically calling out the general consensus that people who outside of therapy recall past trauma or abuse are generally accurate. Thereby supporting my position that supporting and believing someone is not sufficient to spontaneously generate a false memory.

Now please, stop fearmongering.

(edit added 2nd link and discussion)

mibsacnt · 1 day

Excuse me? Yes, they can be fabricated, but this person had a very real experience that very likely matches up to a very real traumatic past event, whether childhood or subsequent. Fabrication requires the deliberate suggestion of particular types of events by an untrained excuse for a therapist. Supporting a human who has had a real present experience in general is nothing to do with fabricating false memories.

Quit fearmongering and be realistic.

edit to be a smidge less rude.

mibsacnt · 1 day

First, I am so so sorry to hear about your childhood. It breaks my heart to hear "I went to whoever was available", what a tragic way to care for a young, vulnerable human. I hope that you can take a moment to recognize just how hurtful that was to you and to give your young self a bit of empathy about having gone through that.

IANAP, but yes, it is possible that you have partially repressed some painful memories. The physical manifestation of that, where you could not function for the day, tells me that you have an unprocessed memory lurking back there.

If you are a particularly mentally strong and determined person, it's entirely possible to learn to recall and then to remember and thereby process such a memory on your own. If you're going to try to do that, I recommend reading Alice Miller or someone in her ilk who talks about the process of giving your child-self the empathetic witness that they lacked at the time of the traumatic experience.

If, on the other hand, you're just a regular schmo, go see a therapist, someone who can help you safely remember and process what happened to you. These kind of memories are, for some people, the origin of ptsd, panic disorders, anxiety, etc. You can protect and heal yourself by remembering (which is recalling with conscious processing and self-empathy) the events so that the raw recall doesn't fill you with dread and ruin your day any more.

:)

jriggedy · 10 days

Came here to say roughly this.

I think intention plays a bigger role than he gives credence. It can be legitimate conversation to talk about a hard route you recently climbed if you genuinely think that the people around you want to hear the story. It can be genuinely helpful to receive beta from a stronger climber even if unsolicited. A person who walks around doing these things because they are small inside is spraying, but another person who goes around saying almost the exact same words because they are grounded and empathetic is just being friendly.

exemon · 21 days

Gorgeous ride!! I'm a bit jealous, I replaced my CB600F a VFR and I miss the nimbleness sometimes.

exemon · 21 days

Wondering the same -- looks similar to a honda CB600F (which I used to have and love until some asshat ran a red light and totalled it).

Bobbysuepoo · 1 month

CRKTs are my absolute go-to. Just got a pair of M16-13ZLEKs for me and my gf.

reardencode · 1 month

I used to swear by dryer lint, but since moving up here to the Northwest I've found that it sucks too much moisture up from the air as soon as you unseal it and it won't even hold a spark! Hence the switch to Vaseline soaked cotton.

UrbanPharmer · 1 month

Definitely -- I was vegetarian for years and eat more actual vegetables now than ever in those years.

throwin_it_all_away2 · 1 month

Everyone's already said the practical stuff, so let me just say this:

I'm so, so sorry that this happened to you. I cannot even imagine what it would feel like to be betrayed by your coworkers and friends who facilitated rather than stopping this guy, to not be believed by them and to be so violated by him. What a fucking animal and what irresponsible, insensitive jerks.

You are not crazy, do like others have said here and report this both for your sake and for others who may be similarly attacked.

njmaverick · 1 month

Damn right they should be denied coverage. You cannot insure facts, you can only insure risks.

2sexy4mybody · 1 month

who said anything about POIS being contagious? Auto immune does not mean with you from birth, just look at MS.

2sexy4mybody · 1 month

Donated some bucks. That sounds awful.

If it is autoimmune, has anyone in your community tried infecting themselves with the immune regulating parasite hook worm?

Get healthy!

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