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TROPHY CASE


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    2010-02-18

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I'm Karen Kwiatkowski -- running for the Virginia's 6th District seat against Bob Goodlatte, entrenched RINO and SOPA cosponsor. AMA by karen4the6thin IAmA

[–]HXn 0 points1 point ago

everyone pays their fare share and that money is used to provide healthcare for everyone.

So you agree. "Free" health care is a misnomer. Either the taxpayers pay for it, or the medical professionals with their labor.

Nothing is "free".

I'm Karen Kwiatkowski -- running for the Virginia's 6th District seat against Bob Goodlatte, entrenched RINO and SOPA cosponsor. AMA by karen4the6thin IAmA

[–]HXn 0 points1 point ago

Its paid for with responsoble use of tax money

So, it's not free.

btjunkie 2005 -> 2012 RIP by InternalDemonin technology

[–]HXn 3 points4 points ago

I'm Karen Kwiatkowski -- running for the Virginia's 6th District seat against Bob Goodlatte, entrenched RINO and SOPA cosponsor. AMA by karen4the6thin IAmA

[–]HXn -3 points-2 points ago

free healthcare system for all

If it's free for all, who pays?

It’s time we stopped beating around the bush and started to admit the obvious. Liberalism is globalism; globalism is liberalism. Our efforts in the name of the poor and downtrodden have created the most oppressive system of government ever envisioned. by JeremiahMRAin Libertarian

[–]HXn 2 points3 points ago* 

Right, but voluntary collectivism is basically what the left wing of libertarianism advocates.

See, I still don't understand this tendency of libertarians to split themselves into "right" and "left". Especially when they rail against the "false paradigm" of the Establishment "right" and "left". I know for the most part, it's supposed to be for clarification concerning certain issues; but more often than not, it simply leads to more confusion.

Voluntary anything shouldn't be "left" or "right". However people wish to voluntarily collectivize is libertarian. However people wish to voluntarily share their wealth and labor with one another is libertarian. Not using coercion, aggression or fraud against other person is libertarian.

That's why I like "voluntaryist". There is no connotation of "right" or "left" and the presumptions thereof. The focus is on the voluntary action between human beings.

Betterthanthee is making a valid point here

I agree with his point here. I was merely pointing out the equivocation with the word "collectivism", for clarification.

often when you bring up any sort of left-libertarianism (geolibertarianism, libertarian socialism) you are often met with some pretty harsh words.

I agree.

Love Glen Greenwald but dislike Salon.com by Choppa790in Libertarian

[–]HXn 4 points5 points ago

Greenwald is the exception on Salon. While his economic knowledge leaves a lot to be desired, he is absolutely solid on the domestic police state and their foreign endeavors of mass murder (the bulk of his focus, anyway). I follow him on Twitter.

Has government driven health care prices up? by JewishIGuessin Libertarian

[–]HXn 7 points8 points ago* 

Are you aware of mutual aid societies? Non-profit health organizations and free clinics? Doctors offering low-cost or free medical care to the indigent? Doctors making house calls? Patients paying out of pocket because costs were lower (since a price actually meant something)? People only needing insurance for rare, costly procedures (the purpose of insurance)?

Sounds like a society from Mars right? All of this was happening as recently as the 1960s. We have some remnants left. What changed?

Has government driven health care prices up? by JewishIGuessin Libertarian

[–]HXn 2 points3 points ago

This is also a moral argument, but from the service end.

Liberty by force. by keeeadin Libertarian

[–]HXn 4 points5 points ago

This is why I am a voluntaryist.

Voluntaryists are advocates of non-political, non-violent strategies to achieve a free society. We reject electoral politics, in theory and in practice, as incompatible with libertarian principles. Governments must cloak their actions in an aura of moral legitimacy in order to sustain their power, and political methods invariably strengthen that legitimacy. Voluntaryists seek instead to delegitimize the State through education, and we advocate withdrawal of the cooperation and tacit consent on which State power ultimately depends.

-voluntaryist.com

"Political gains without philosophical understanding are potentially short-lived." This may be better understood if we realize that we should focus on the question: "How do we prevent another State from taking the place of the one we already have?" rather than concentrating on the short-term problem (which most libertarians address) of "How do we get rid of the current State?" How can people be weaned from the State by the use of electoral politics? If the political method is proper to remove the State, as those active in the L.P. believe, then would it not be proper to re-introduce a new State, if the majority of voters were to desire it? The point is that there must be a sufficient respect and understanding for freedom and liberty in a given social community before those ideals can be realized, and if that respect and understanding already exist (or are brought into existence) - there is no reason to capture the seats of political power in order to disband the State. You attack evil at its roots by not supporting it. Just as voluntaryism occurs naturally if no one does anything to stop it, so will the State gradually disappear when those who oppose it stop supporting it. (This is not to overlook the fact that a certain "critical mass" of numbers must be reached before this can happen.)

The only thing that the individual can do "is to present society with 'one improved unit'." As Albert Jay Nock put it,

"[A]ges of experience testify that the only way society can be improved is by the individualist method ... ; that is, the method of each 'one' doing his very best to improve 'one'."

This is the "quiet" or "patient" way of changing society because it concentrates upon bettering the character of men and women as individuals. As the individual units change, the improvement of society will take care of itself. In other words, "If one takes care of the means, the end will take care of itself."

-Cultivate Your Own Garden, The Voluntaryist

To vote is to express a preference. There is nothing implicitly evil in choosing. All of us in the ordinary course of our daily lives vote for or against dozens of products and services. ...

When we place voting into the framework of politics, however, a major change occurs. When we express a preference politically, we do so precisely because we intend to bind others to our will. Political voting is the legal method we have adopted and extolled for obtaining monopolies of power. Political voting is nothing more than the assumption that might makes right. There is a presumption that any decision wanted by the majority of those expressing a preference must be desirable, and the inference even goes so far as to presume that anyone who differs from a majority view is wrong or possibly immoral.

But history shows repeatedly the madness of crowds and the irrationality of majorities. The only conceivable merit relating to majority rule lies in the fact that if we obtain monopoly decisions by this process, we will coerce fewer persons than if we permit the minority to coerce the majority. But implicit in all political voting is the necessity to coerce some so that all are controlled. The direction taken by the control is academic. Control as a monopoly in the hands of the state is basic.

-Abstain from Beans, Robert LeFevre

Libertarians need to decide whether they want to participate in electoral politics or confront the entire idea of the state and majoritarian rule as illegitimate, coercive, and violent. If they choose the latter, they will be fighting the final battle for freedom instead of solemnly gathering and guarding the remaining crumbs of freedom. If libertarians falter at the pretense of ‘winning better contracts’ by fighting for lower taxes, school vouchers, and more individual freedom, they’ll be forever postponing the battles for an end to taxation, public education, and for the complete liberation of every individual.

...

If libertarians persist in splitting their efforts between electoral politics and apolitical means it will continue to factionalize and weaken their movement in the tradition of the radical socialists. One can successfully argue that radicalism has no place in politics because politics is the science of compromise. Libertarianism can only be watered down and corrupted by electoral politics but in doing so it will drag the center of the political compass and public discourse closer to liberty. Libertarian participation in American majoritarian democracy also signals their willingness to be governed by such practices. By lobbying their rulers for more freedom, libertarians are legitimizing the position of rulers to redistribute the freedom they never had the moral authority to assume. This is troubling to some libertarians in the same way that the IWW preferred not to negotiate for contracts with the capitalists. While Ron Paul is directly responsible for the evolution of numerous market anarchists through his pragmatic office holding, libertarian efforts are diminished by focusing primarily on electing freedom-friendly candidates into the halls of political power.

-What Libertarians Should Learn From Radical Socialists


There is, however, an argument to be made for voting as self-defense:

It cannot be said that, by voting, a man pledges himself to support the Constitution, unless the act of voting be a perfectly voluntary one on his part. Yet the act of voting cannot properly be called a voluntary one on the part of any very large number of those who do vote. It is rather a measure of necessity imposed upon them by others, than one of their own choice. ...

"In truth, in the case of individuals, their actual voting is not to be taken as proof of consent, even for the time being. On the contrary, it is to be considered that, without his consent having even been asked, a man finds himself environed by a government that he cannot resist; a government that forces him to pay money, render service, and forego the exercise of many of his natural rights, under peril of weighty punishments. He sees, too, that other men practise this tyranny over him by the use of the ballot. He sees further, that, if he will but use the ballot himself, he has some chance of relieving himself from this tyranny of others, by subjecting them to his own. In short, he finds himself, without his consent, so situated that, if he use the ballot, he may become a master; if he does not use it, he must become a slave. And he has no other alternative than these two. In self-defence, he attempts the former. His case is analogous to that of a man who has been forced into battle, where he must either kill others, or be killed himself. Because, to save his own life in battle, a man attempts to take the lives of his opponents, it is not to be inferred that the battle is one of his own choosing. Neither in contests with the ballot—which is a mere substitute for a bullet—because, as his only chance of self-preservation, a man uses a ballot, is it to be inferred that the contest is one into which he voluntarily entered; that he voluntarily set up all his own natural rights, as a stake against those of others, to be lost or won by the mere power of numbers. On the contrary, it is to be considered that, in an exigency into which he had been forced by others, and in which no other means of self-defence offered, he, as a matter of necessity, used the only one that was left to him.

"Doubtless the most miserable of men, under the most oppressive government in the world, if allowed the ballot, would use it, if they could see any chance of thereby meliorating their condition. But it would not, therefore, be a legitimate inference that the government itself, that crushes them, was one which they had voluntarily set up, or ever consented to.

"Therefore, a man's voting under the Constitution of the United States, is not to be taken as evidence that he ever freely assented to the Constitution, even for the time being. Consequently we have no proof that any very large portion, even of the actual voters of the United States, ever really and voluntarily consented to the Constitution, even for the time being. Nor can we ever have such proof, until every man is left perfectly free to consent, or not, without thereby subjecting himself or his property to be disturbed or injured by others."

-The Constitution of No Authority, Lysander Spooner

Is Anyone Banned from /libertarian? by AnonForSenatein Libertarian

[–]HXn 7 points8 points ago

I forget I'm a mod sometimes, if that's any indication.

Is Anyone Banned from /libertarian? by AnonForSenatein Libertarian

[–]HXn[M] 5 points6 points ago

http://i.imgur.com/fsBN6.png

You can go to reddit.com/user/[username] to confirm they are spambots.

This generation's American Dream: Get free stuff from the Government by MyGogglesDoNothingin Libertarian

[–]HXn 2 points3 points ago

If WalMart ran a school system, would we be shocked to find 80% of its graduates liked WalMart?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGGLeYibPiY#t=15m10s

Ayn Rand thought Native Americans didn't have a right to the land they lived on because they hadn't 'civilized it.' by toxicbrewin Libertarian

[–]HXn 1 point2 points ago

That was awesome. (+1 for a young Jeffery Tucker.)

I tricked r/atheism with a fake Ron Paul quote, and they blindly upvoted it to 4th place. I have just come clean about it, take a look! by ObamaTaxCutsin Libertarian

[–]HXn 3 points4 points ago

The tendency of many atheists toward the apotheosis of the State.

Christians and Ron Paul, I don't get it. by Highpointerin Christianity

[–]HXn 0 points1 point ago

I'm talking about human interaction.

Huh? When were we talking about that?

You said:

Ron Paul is very opposed to cutting federal assistance to the poor, sick, elderly, disabled, etc. Doesn't sound very Christian of him

To which I replied:

Yeah, he's a Christian who actually follows the golden rule, imagine that. Why do most Christians, including yourself, believe violence is the only way to help people? This is what doesn't sound very Christian to me.

I linked to the Wikipedia article on the non-aggression principle (i.e., the golden rule).

We were discussing his political views.

The "political" is merely the subset of human interaction that is interested in binding others to your will. In general, this involves the use of the State, which is an institution predicated on aggression.

Not sure what you are getting at...

I'm not sure if you are being deliberately obtuse or not. Forgive me if you're not, but I'm not sure how I can explain it any simpler.

Christians and Ron Paul, I don't get it. by Highpointerin Christianity

[–]HXn 0 points1 point ago* 

I'm not talking solely about "foreign policy." I'm talking about human interaction.

But as Christians, his economic policy should disgust you.

What disgusts me is people who think using aggression against peaceful people is either "Christian" or "compassionate".

Helping people is compassion. Sticking a gun in your neighbor's ribs to help people is not.

Christians and Ron Paul, I don't get it. by Highpointerin Christianity

[–]HXn 0 points1 point ago

Yeah, he's a Christian who actually follows the golden rule, imagine that. Why do most Christians, including yourself, believe violence is the only way to help people? This is what doesn't sound very Christian to me.

Christians and Ron Paul, I don't get it. by Highpointerin Christianity

[–]HXn 0 points1 point ago* 

In Brazil the only ones who were helping the masses of homeless crack addicts were the churches. But they couldn't solve the problem by their own. Now the state in going in. It's going to be better this way, more people will be helped. There will be people paid to help them; more people are helped this way.

I can't really reply to this because your comment is pretty general, and I don't know the intricacies of the crack problem in Brazil.

But just to be clear, you are in favor of coercing (that is, threatening with violence) some human beings to help other human beings? Because that is how State operations are funded.

But now selfishness is too strong.

So why do you want to give selfish, sinful humans the institutional power to unilaterally control, coerce and expropriate from other humans? You don't see a problem with that, morally or pragmatically?

If people were good enough to make society work without law/coercion (its the same thin)

No.

Also, in a democracy, ideally its not "the state" who is coercing. The people is deciding who it want its world to be.

The State is the institution that claims a monopoly of force in a given geographical territory. By-and-large, they do not represent the "people" but only themselves and those that have enough money to influence the former who wield extraordinary power over their fellow men. (See: military-industrial-congressional complex, for example.) But let's say you are correct, and the people do control their State. Does that give legitimacy to the tyranny of the majority (also known as "might makes right")? I implore you to read this essay.

Sharing the products of a society is not unfair. Getting richer while your workers don't is.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but are you willing to use physical force against innocent people (assuming they obtained the fruits of their labor justly and voluntarily)? Under what system of morality, because it certainly is not Christianity, is a human being forced to labor--under threat of violence--for another?

All that said, as I mentioned before, Christians are mandated and have an obligation to do this to a certain extent. But violence is never a part of that equation.

But if I'm rich in a tax-free country and give out 30% what I earn to help people... I wound't I give out 30% of my liquid earning in a tax-heavy country? Because there would be less million dollars left?

I don't understand; could you re-phrase?

George Ought to Help: Taxes by Force by LiberThomas3in Libertarian

[–]HXn 0 points1 point ago

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