How did Adam sin if he did not have a sin nature?

honestchristian · 2012-05-23T16:25:09.239807+00:00

Sure they weren't "fully informed" that's what innocence is. I have no problem agreeing that innocence is a type of ignorance, but they definitely weren't playing an intellectual game of chance because of the direct instruction they received from God. They knowing went against what God command, even if they didn't fully understand the ramifications.

honestchristian · 2012-05-23T13:45:24.172571+00:00

I think I see what you're getting at now, and it's reasonable to say that Adam and Eve knew more about good after the fall because of the contrast that evil provided. It wasn't until the fall that they had the experience of evil which afforded them a full knowledge of goodness. How much can someone know about light without ever experiencing darkness?

Adam and Eve must have been limited in their knowledge of how good they had it for temptation to even be a possibility. They became convinced that there was something better than the goodness that God was providing, exactly like we do today when we sin.

edit: this may start to answer your question below too "Why not just make people like that in the first place?"

irresolute_essayist · 2012-05-22T23:47:17.500566+00:00

"If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you: A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours. But all these things they will do to you on account of my name, because they do not know him who sent me."

honestchristian · 2012-05-22T21:06:09.271883+00:00

Not at all. Just using sex in general as an example because of the "knowing" connection.

honestchristian · 2012-05-22T19:12:52.545585+00:00

God can know evil intimately without partaking of the sin itself in the sense that he is the other party in the offense that is sin. All sins are ultimately against God, so he knows it in a passive sense of being a victim, the one sinned against never as an active doer of evil.

honestchristian · 2012-05-22T18:50:03.935720+00:00

The point hinges on the fact that knowing is not the same thing as understanding in the OT. If you don't acknowledge that difference then you're gonna have a hard time understanding, and we're gonna have a hard time having a dialog.

honestchristian · 2012-05-22T18:23:53.595907+00:00

The concept of "knowing" in the OT is seen most often in relationship to a husband "knowing" his wife, or having intercourse with her. It's a joining together and bonding-with kind of relationship. A man can know intellectually what sex is without having participated in it, and know all kinds of things about his finance without “becoming one” with her.

In the same way Adam was perfectly capable of understanding the idea that he should not eat the apple because he was commanded not to by God before actually engaging in the breaking of the commandment. We can have a head knowledge of sin without engaging with/inter-coursing with sin.

When Adam ate the apple he was "knowing" sin the same way that a man “knows” his wife. The sin was not in the intellectually knowledge of what he should, or in this case shouldn’t do, but in the willful breaking of God’s commandment. Adam willfully entered into a relationship with sin that is exactly like the “knowing” of a wife. He joined together with and bonded permanently with sin – he “knew” evil.

honestchristian · 2012-05-22T17:54:11.784243+00:00

How could it be a sin for Adam to eat from the tree if he did not yet have the concept of right and wrong?

That is a much better question, and the way I've heard it resolved is in making a distinction made between knowing something intellectually and knowing something through experience.

CheezeBall · 1 day

There's no special trick in learning to control yourself to the point where your body releases the tension naturally in your sleep. Then, over time the emissions will decrease in frequency.

Raptor-Llama · 2 days

I'm not sure if it's the same in other Methodist churches but our congregation doesn't have a strong emphasis on theology or doctrine. We are more of a community building & service oriented congregation with members who range from emergent to reformed in their theology.

Personally, I felt a need for doctrines I could really grab hold of that the non-offensive teaching from the pulpit was not providing. Over the past few years of reading and studying I've found reformed theology to be the most intellectually consistent and the only perspective that provides the real "meat" of Christianity. What I've learned of God from reformed theology has providentially sustained me through some difficult times and continues to challenge, convict and force me to grow spiritually.

As far as it blending with the rest of the church it does have it's challenges. I'm heavily involved with the youth ministry, and the youth pastor is very liberal/emergent in his theology. The differences we have definitely keep us from being as close in fellowship with each other as we could be, and there has been some conflict, but we've settled on the idea that there is value in having differing perspectives.

Raptor-Llama · 4 days

Mainline/liberal --> mostly Reformed, once I actively started to study on my own.

LetMePrayForYou · 6 days

Calling a troll on this one.

Cookiemobsta · 6 days

Check out Dave Ramsey if you don't know who he is. He's got some great financial advice that comes from a biblical perspective, and the community is handy to tap into as well.

partofaplan2 · 7 days

True, I guess I should have put the caveat of claiming to be Christian and living in an ongoing, sinful lifestyle.

partofaplan2 · 7 days

Well no, he's got his girlfriend. And only until he repents.

partofaplan2 · 7 days

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 5 to have nothing to do with the sexually immoral.

DirtyBojanglez · 7 days

Same here.

chipmunkonfire · 8 days

The methodist church is notoriously weak when it comes to theology. "Just feeling it in his heart" is a poor apologetic coming from your dad; our faith should not be contingent upon our emotions. I have had several emotional religious experiences or "highs" in my walk, but my day to day is one that experiences sorrow and anguish at my own and the world's brokenness, which leads me to repentance and hoping solely on Christ. I'm sure you know that John Wesley didn't "feel" his faith until his aldersgate street experience, so even the founder of the church we belong to didn't experience the feelings of faith continually.

We also have to be careful that when we want to experience God working in our lives that what we really want is God, not an emotional experience. To that end, the study of theology has been the biggest help for me in experiencing God through learning who he truly is. During the studying of his attributes, God powerfully and providentially assured me of my salvation and gave me a direction in life that was emotionally excruciating for me, but was clearly his will.

I don't know if that helps you at all, but please don't give up on faith just because you don't currently feel it. Build your faith on the promises God gives in his word and the nature of who he is and he will keep you.

machamochi · 8 days

I have no doubt that God can use me, I just wonder why he doesn't more often.

lumberdragon · 8 days

I'm curious as to your thoughts on the the sinful nature of humanity and the atoning work of Christ.

WertFig · 12 days

R.C. Sproul breaks the will of God into 3 separate components; His sovereign will (in which he decrees everything that will come to pass), His perceptive/hidden will (which is what we can know from scripture vs. what he hasn't revealed), and His will of disposition (his attitude).

WeAreAllBroken · 18 days

This man also speaks truth. :)

WeAreAllBroken · 18 days

This man speaks truth.

jspsfx · 19 days

That is some incredibly powerful poetry. Thank you for sharing it.

edit: I keep listening to this over and over. This is what church should be - people who stare the brokenness of the world and themselves in the face and hold onto God and each other.

prime1357 · 19 days

Thank God.

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