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Pat Metheny's rant on Kenny G (self.Music)
submitted 1 year ago by bobbinsc
I'm sure some of you have seen this already, but it's pretty funny and worth reading again.
http://www.jazzoasis.com/methenyonkennyg.htm
[–]reallifepixel 64 points65 points66 points 1 year ago*
I had a friend who was a getting his degree in music and he told this joke...
"You're in a room with Stalin, Hitler, & Kenny G. You have a gun, but it only has two bullets. What do you do? ... Shoot Kenny G twice."
[–]codemon 20 points21 points22 points 1 year ago
Oh my god! They killed Kenny!
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago
you bastards!
Pat needs an editor and a stress ball
[–]modeliste 24 points25 points26 points 1 year ago
I agree with Pat Metheny
[–]swordgeek 7 points8 points9 points 1 year ago
Since you beat me to the punch in posting this, let me offer Richard Thompson's commentary on Janet Jackson's wardrobe malfunction.
For no reason really, except that more people need to hear this sort of stuff.
[–]futureslave 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago
I stand with Richard Thompson, Pat Metheny, and Louis Armstrong against Kenny G and Michael Bolton!
Kind of an easy call, really...
[–]PanglossAlberta 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago
I really, really fucking love Richard Thompson. Thank you.
[–]bobbinsc[S] 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
Who is that?
[–]postdarwin 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago
Richard Thompson. Immediately thought of this too.
[–]MyPants 21 points22 points23 points 1 year ago
That got pretty intense pretty abruptly.
[–]astatine 29 points30 points31 points 1 year ago
Unlike, for instance, Kenny G.
[–]thehighercritic 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
perhaps a bump.
[–]The_Yeti -2 points-1 points0 points 1 year ago
My perception of Pat Metheny has changed. Not saying he's wrong -- in fact I'm inclined to agree -- it's just that I never would have imagined him expressing that kind of opinion in that way:
...by spewing his lame-ass, jive, pseudo bluesy, out-of-tune, noodling, wimped out, fucked up playing all over ...
Don't hold back, Pat, tell us how you really feel.
[–]petawb 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
Why not? He's already expressed his point in a technical way - it's good to see it expressed in an emotional way as well. I think it's great.
[–]The_Yeti 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
Well, I just don't connect that kind of harsh language with, say, this.
Not that I'm busting on Pat, I'm just surprised, is all. Maybe he and I have more in common than I thought. I love his music, and I also tend to get verbally pretty brutal with people who earn it, IMO. I sometimes play guitar, but I don't think I've ever approached anything like his expressiveness or articulation. But I really like it.
[–]weegee 60 points61 points62 points 1 year ago
Kenny G is the McDonald's of sax players. Cheap, bad for your health, but tastes good if you have zero knowledge of good music.
[–]ReggaeRecipe 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago
Love the analogy! Here's a comment point.
[–]Estoye 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago*
That's not a comment. That's an uncredited quote of Pat Metheny.
Edit: spelling
[–]orblivion 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
I think his music would be perfect for a Christmastime McDonalds commercial.
[–]Peeonmyface -18 points-17 points-16 points 1 year ago
As someone who doesn't listen to jazz music, good, bad, whatever, it all sounds the same to me.
[–]wingedgopher 16 points17 points18 points 1 year ago*
I didn't know about the Louis Armstrong thing. For those of you who don't know: in the jazz world, Louis Armstrong is a pretty big deal. What Kenny G did was akin to somebody superimposing a shitty guitar solo over "Penny Lane." It's just crass and arrogant to an unbelievable degree.
[–]BlackMaria 17 points18 points19 points 1 year ago
Shhhh. Oasis might hear you.
[–]Noel_Gallagher 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago
Come say that to my face, you fucking wanker.
[–]you_are_wrong 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
I have a feeling it wouldn't have been as much of an outrage if it hadn't been so successful.
[–]heresybob 13 points14 points15 points 1 year ago
by spewing his lame-ass, jive, pseudo bluesy, out-of-tune, noodling, wimped out, fucked up playing all over one of the great Louis's tracks
LOL I busted out laughing!
[–]BigKahunaBurger 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago
That, everyone, is what we call a sick burn.
[–]gordonjay2 12 points13 points14 points 1 year ago
He, in one move, through his unbelievably pretentious and calloused musical decision to embark on this most cynical of musical paths, shit all over the graves of all the musicians past and present who have risked their lives by going out there on the road for years and years developing their own music inspired by the standards of grace that Louis Armstrong brought to every single note he played over an amazing lifetime as a musician.
this quote, or one very similar to it, made me laugh harder than i have ever laughed when i first read it in Guitar One almost ten years ago.
i'm not even familiar with Pat Metheny's music, but he is a god to me.
[–]wohl0052 28 points29 points30 points 1 year ago
its too bad you aren't he is a fantastic guitar player
[–]gordonjay2 7 points8 points9 points 1 year ago
some asshole downvoted you. i fixed it.
ok where should i start?
[–]seabre 6 points7 points8 points 1 year ago
Along with these suggestions, I add Bright Size Life. It has Pat Metheny and Jaco.
[–]gordonjay2 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
sweet!
[–]isarl 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago
I own three of his albums: Speaking of Now, which is good, The Way Up, which is awesome, and Metheny Mehldau, a collaboration with Brad Mehldau which is also very good.
(Or just head over to www.grooveshark.com and search Pat Metheny.)
[–]lozzobear 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
First Circle and Imaginary day are great records. :)
[–]sheridbm 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago
To throw in some older work of his: Pat Metheny Group - Travels, is just about my favorite live album of all time.
[–]wohl0052 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
this is the first time i was exposed to PM in like middle school or something sooo awesome
[–]azechiel 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
I've got a very large selection of Pat Metheny records, and here's my two cents.
The Way Up is his best album to date, but it is very progressive and a little harder to get into, so it might not be the best place to start.
American Garage and As Falls Wichita, So Falls Wichita Falls are both very good early records to start with, and if you want a taste of his latin-influenced era, pick up either Letter From Home or Still Life (Talking).
Also, pick up One Quiet Night, which is him on solo baritone guitar.
thanks, i'll see if i can find any of those in the Used section at the record store. (why bother downloading, if i can't listen on good speakers!)
[–]BoredHottie 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago
hilarious and true. kenny g is miserable. for a great read, check out "Bad Music"'s chapter on gorelick.
That whole chapter is available in the Google Books preview of the book, starting on page 123.
[–]Subhoney 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago
Not quite... several pages are cut out of the chapter. =(
[–]sinbetweens 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago
Oh, Kenny G and his snorkel. I never tire of mocking them.
[–]gnudarveGnudarve 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
thank you
[–]Remix73 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago
As a sax player I can't tell you how annoying it is when someone says "that sounds great, just like Kenny G". That said though, if there was no Kenny G, what would we play at airports, in elevators, and for on-hold music.
[–]trollmaster5000 7 points8 points9 points 1 year ago
As a saxophonist, this is glorious. One day Mr. "G" will pay for his crimes. I propose a trial, perhaps at Nuremberg.
[–]magusg 13 points14 points15 points 1 year ago
tl;dr - he doesn't like him.
[–]magpi3 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
The song in question
[–]stubble 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
Eww, I feel dirty now. Just the few few intro bars was enough to make me wanna hurl. I'd actually never heard of this guy before today. Wish I could turn back time by just a few minutes..
[–]dismember 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago*
Interestingly, Mr G had his mouth removed and replaced with a real live human vagina so that he could create his wimpy, pussified tone. It really, really works!
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
That's one of the most disturbing things I've ever seen.
[–]mackpayson 8 points9 points10 points 1 year ago
Metheny 2012.
[–]daysi 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago
It's just the nature of the beast. I can almost guarantee that any musician who attains the degree of popular interest that Kenny G has is mediocre at best, because that is what the average listener wants: mediocrity. The average listener simply isn't capable of understanding truly great playing and tends to write it off as noise.
One time I played a bebop recording for a friend of mine and he said it was "just a bunch of notes". How could I argue with someone so closed-off to anything artistic? I mean technically, he was right. But by that rationale humans are "just a bunch of cells" and the Sistine Chapel is "just a bunch of paint".
[–]daysi 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago
:)
[–][deleted] 14 points15 points16 points 1 year ago
Don't get me wrong, I don't like Kenny G, but this guy is taking it way too seriously; more importantly, he's just wrong on a few points.
Even though he's pretty well versed in music, he obviously hasn't put a lot of thought into value.
When he says, "There ARE some things that are sacred - and amongst any musician that has ever attempted to address jazz at even the most basic of levels, Louis Armstrong and his music is hallowed ground. To ignore this trespass is to agree that NOTHING any musician has attempted to do with their life in music has any intrinsic value - and I refuse to do that."
He's being completely irrational. There ISN'T any intrinsic value in that nor is there intrinsic value in ANYthing else. If he personally values that sorta thing, that's fine, but he's coming across arrogantly ignorant. Yeah, I get pissed off when my favorite artists are covered or redone by shitty bands, but I'm reasonable enough to know this is just a personal preference, not some silly ubiquitous rule.
Even the claim that Kenny G isn't a musician is ridiculous (tantamount to saying somebody isn't an artist because you don't like them) although I'm guessing that was a bit hyperbolic.
[–][deleted] 1 year ago*
[deleted]
it is about the plain fact that lots of people just don't really care enough to seek out anything that is actually worthwhile.
You're implying some sort of universally objective value system which is irrational; that's like telling somebody they didn't enjoy the slice of pizza they just claimed to love.
"Worthwhile" is subjective.
Now, if you want to say it sucks that people only seek out unintelligent/simple art (which is an adjective that says nothing about value or merit), I'd personally agree with you.
Most people want narrative films that don't make them think filled with lots of violence/humor/shocks/romance or other cheap thrills where theme is the least important part of the film. Most people want music in 4/4 (pulse meter) with a simple chord structure, contemporary instrumentation and percussion that doesn't involve elaborate syncopation so that they can tap/dance/sing along... also it can't change too much (anything beyond verse/chorus/bridge is usually bad).
Is this depressing? Well it depends on who you are. For me, yes. For them, absolutely not. Is either side more justified in their musical choice? As much as I hate it, the answer is no.
[–]Dokterrock 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
Are you a musician or an artist? Your comment is interesting and worth considering, but that doesn't change the fact that the dumbing-down of the general public when it comes to its consumption of art is a pretty depressing situation. I don't think that having contempt for a shitty artist/musician necessarily means hiding behind artistic integrity - it is about the plain fact that lots of people just don't really care enough to seek out anything that is actually worthwhile. Yes, I know that taste is subjective, etc, but when you have dedicated and talented people working hard and only for the sake of their art, it is rather upsetting to see people who are only out to make a buck (like the hypothetical example you gave about Metheny doing a Metallica album) end up managing to do exactly that. When art becomes a naked commercial exercise, it is valid for those who do not make art for that reason to take issue. Sure, it's the nature of the market, as you said, but that only serves to prove how transparent most art of a commercial nature really is - and for those people who actually struggle and strive for quality, it is very disheartening.
Look at that band Brokencyde or whatever they're called, it's pretty clear they don't deserve to make a penny for their awful, earsplitting racket. I do have contempt for people like that because they make a mockery out of all the deserving musicians in the world who are actually talented and dedicated to producing a quality product.
With that being said, I wanted to point out Chuck Klosterman's essay regarding the same thing - what, exactly is the point of art and music if not to be relatable to the widest audience? If it needs to be dumbed-down to be relatable but succeeds in that endeavor, does it succeed overall?
[–]thepensivepoet 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago*
There's nothing wrong with taking a song and recording a cover version of a classic... your own interpretation.
If Kenny G put out his own "original" cover version of What A Wonderful World nobody would have noticed. It would end up Track # 9 on his next bullshit album.
But by actually taking the ORIGINAL song and recording his terrible playing on top really IS incredibly arrogant and disrespectful.
EDIT : Just to elaborate (I feel some people here don't fully grasp the concept...) by recording his own playing ontop of the original he's basically saying "This song wasn't complete without my soloing and by adding it I have made this classic song even BETTER!" Aside from the fact that neither of those statements are correct it's delusional to the point of absurdity that he ever thought so.
[–]pyrrhus 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
I agree with you so much on the intrinsic value thing -- even accepting, as an hypothesis, that there is such a thing and that Pat Metheny can identify rightly which song is intrinsically valuable or not, the "sacred" part is plain ridiculous. A new religion is not what we need in music. And "sacred" music would mean that ALL mash-ups, all sampling in contemporary music is evil. Come on!
I think Pat was more to the point when he said he hated Kenny G because of "his lame-ass, jive, pseudo bluesy, out-of-tune, noodling, wimped out, fucked up playing". No need to add to this that Kenny G touched a "sacred" tune.
[–]okletstrythisagain 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago*
There is clearly intrinsic value in music in that allows western culture to progress in a way much of the population finds pleasing. there would be no kenny g without Wayne Shorter, no Shorter without Coltrane, no Coltrane without Parker. By recording OVER Armstrong, kenny g is suggesting he is remotely as important as Armstrong, which the real jazz community rightly finds offensive.
To suggest that Coltrane and Davis didn't fundamentally alter Western music is a way which profoundly affected the activities, culture, and quality of life for much of the world is intellectually dishonest. Here we have intrinsic value. I know not everybody likes jazz but there are some immutable truths here even for those who aren't jazz snobs, and to those passionate about the subject they certainly constitute sacred ground.
Jazz is a near religious pursuit for many of us and I think the term "sacred" is very appropriate, (especially if one doesn't have any specifically superseding faith).
kenny g is a cultural dead-end at best, and is actually fueling a tragic and deplorable trend that perverts concepts of absolute human beauty with tawdry pulp by maligning the legacy of the cultural trailblazers without whom Metheny as an artist probably would not exist. we don't need a creation myth here, we have records, and we stand on the shoulders of giants.
but this isn't about taste or opinion, it is about respect for history and good manners. notice Metheny addressed the unfortunate reality that kenny g could not simply be reclassified as something other than jazz, which would have somewhat resolved the issue.
The jazz tradition is more delicate, sensitive and nuanced than most other genres. the culture and lineage around the players, the process and the history is much more studied, precise and emotional than a modern band scene or Haight-Ashbury in the 60's.
i know everyone has an opinion and thinks it matters, but the fact is that jazz is a more serious pursuit than most music, from Armstrong to John Zorn and whatever's coming next. Its history and impact has elevated its legacy well above pop and for kenny g to soil it, and to lead society to think his bullshit was okay, is from a humanist standpoint clearly and literally sacrilege.
You obviously do not know the meaning of "intrinsic value". It means something that has value independently of the good or bad that is derived from that thing. So when you say that jazz must be valued because it is a serious pursuit, you are just saying that seriousness is more important to value (say, in jazz) than another value (say, entertainment). But you are not saying that jazz is good in itself, independently of any good we could appreciate in jazz.
If jazz would really be intrinsically good, then it should be cherished by everyone, independently of their value system. I don't think that is what you are saying, but maybe I don't get it.
In my understanding, there's not much in our world that possesses intrinsic value - we use this word, I think, in the sense of "more valuable than anything else" which is a whole different matter.
Anyhow, sorry if I sound scholarly.
I personally tend to avoid the "sacred", I prefer to make up my own mind about what is valuable or not, then to obey a master.
[–]okletstrythisagain 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
what i meant in my disjointed rant was that Armstrong and certain key figures in jazz history are intrinsic to jazz's existence and forms. i'm not really familiar with formal philosophical definitions of "intrinsic," and i figure you are probably correct in a technical sense, but certain watershed recordings and players seemed to fit the definition below reasonably well:
"The term intrinsic denotes a property of some thing or action which is essential and specific to that thing or action, and which is wholly independent of any other object, action or consequence. A characteristic which is not essential or inherent is extrinsic."
as far as use of the term "sacred," i meant it was appropriate to use from Metheny's perspective, in that it really is that important to him. it would have been better for me to include some context on how jazz appreciation and development differs from other generes and creates batshit obsessed aficionados. one could argue these folks let a hobby get out of control and lost perspective on what roll is reasonable to have jazz play in one's life. regardless, they are more reverent and sensitive to their roots to an extent where some would call a record sacred and actually mean it in a spiritual sense, like this guy, for instance.
[–]tairygreene 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago
geez don't let this guy find out about samplers
[–]sub_o 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago
Compare to this
[–]ianmckaye 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago*
John Coltrane always leaves me speechless. I'm not a Jazz-nerd, but listening to him or some recordings of Chet Baker are of such beauty, they make me weepy.
[–]bobbinsc[S] 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago
So, I just wanted to expand upon one point that I saw a few people make here. People are arguing on whether or not music has intrinsic value, or if it's all a matter of opinion. My thoughts on the matter: I guess you could say nothing has intrinsic value, everything is subjective. However, I'll say that good music has the ability of communicating the ONE thing that is intrinsically valuable. You know it when you hear it. If you're a musician, it's that feeling that you get when you've got something to say, but you can't quite say it. It's that soulful feeling, that thing that you just KNOW. I realize this may sound like a bunch of bs to some people. What exactly is this "thing" that music attempts to communicate? I can't really put it into words. I guess if you could put it into words the music wouldn't be necessary. The music doesn't include this thing, it just points to it. Some music does a great job at reminding us of what it is, and other music doesn't. That's my take on music, agree or disagree.
[–]notjawn 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago
Yeah but you know how many times Kenny G has probably gotten laid from his music? I bet he takes girls home and they are all like "Kenny this isn't right, we just met." and he's all like "One second." Whips out his tenor sax, plays a soulful melody and the woman just melts into his arms.
[–]jackassery 8 points9 points10 points 1 year ago
it's hard to play a soulful melody when you have no soul.
[–]MattTheGeek 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago
it is "soulful-ish-like"
[–]lolbacon 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago
Pasteurized Soul-like Music Product™
[–]MattTheGeek 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago
mmmmmmm!! sounds delish!
[–]Witness 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
He plays soprano sax, not tenor.
[–]notjawn 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
Ohh he plays both, just tenor for his private parlor concerts ;)
[–]Nahtanoj 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
Only Kenny plays the soprano sax. Nobody ever got laid because of a soprano sax.
[–]mexicodoug 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
So? Plenty of guys get there quicker by whipping out a small envelope containing a small quantity of white powder...
[–]Estoye 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
Plenty of guys are Carnac the Magnificent?
[–]allanmac00 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago
Holy hell my eyes hurt from reading that page.
[–]Siurana 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago
In the interests of devil's advocate... Kenny G could just as easily say he was attempting to pay tribute to one of his idols, and it could be read as an homage carrying the same amount of respect as Metheny has for Louis.
If a crappy band covers a great song, you don't hate them for thinking they're as good as the original band - that's not usually the attitude, and it's not the point of a cover. You say "Bless their little hearts for trying. Too bad it was an unfitting tribute to the great insert artist's name... At least they gave it a shot."
[–]Zero_Gravitas 15 points16 points17 points 1 year ago
That wasn't really the point. If Kenny had simply recorded a cover version, however crappy, no one would've cared. What he did do was record himself over Armstrong. That's a whole different thing.
[–]you_are_wrong 11 points12 points13 points 1 year ago
Kenny G on his redubbing of Armstrong:
I said, 'Whatever we do, if we're not going to make it better, let's throw it away and we won't do it.'
source
[–]Estoye 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
Wow. Arrogance confirmed.
[–]professormarvel 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago
white text+black background= pain
[–]combuchan 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago
Tell me again what's wrong with low contrast? It's supposed to be much easier on the eyes.
[–]biocs_nerd 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
You might want to check out the Readability experiment. It's a neat service that instantly makes a page more legible.
Especially when attempting to return to a page designed by a competent webmaster (for example, a reddit comment page) of black text on white background.
[–]professormarvel -1 points0 points1 point 1 year ago
indeed, my good sir.
[–]Clumpy 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
Kenny G will bathe in your blood and usher in the apocalypse and nothing you can say will stop it.
[–]fireorgan 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
pretty easy target
[–]combuchan 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
I am a novice keyboardist and got into music late so everything I learn is one humbly amazing journey after another. I will use Kenny G as my anti-idol, the example of what NOT to do if I ever make it big. What an ass.
It baffles my mind that people get signed and not spend one bit of effort on actually improving themselves musically, and instead see their record deal as an incestuous pat on the back from people who similarly don't have a clue. To serve one pretentious steaming pile of shit after another to an ignorant populace--why continue to create if you're not even getting any better? How can he not care on such a profound level? Why even bother being a musician?
As if it could get any worse, he drives the standard of "smooth jazz" even lower. My father listens to this garbage in the car and it's torture.
[–]tonepoems 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
Given that Kenny G. is playing that JW Marriott next week, I think it's safe to assume his career is pretty dead.
[–]qazqaz7k 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
How about yanni?
Whats the verdict on him?
Not a fan of Yanni either, though I'm not so familiar with his music so I can't really criticize him. I've never heard anything that interested me enough to give it an honest listen.
[–]kindall 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
Yanni is a reasonably talented keyboardist and composer. His first couple of albums were really pretty good electronic new age music of the type that was popular at the time of their release. (A little cheesy, but no worse than his labelmates at Private Music.) His third album was the first that featured a picture of him on the cover, a trait which all albums since have shared. That was when they started sucking.
I am unaware that Kenny G has any talent or has ever not sucked.
[–]Sin2K 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
One could really argue that the same was said for Kurt Cobain in the guitar world... The only thing that saved him was the fact that he was much better at writing lyrics than he was at playing the guitar.
[–]plmunn 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
My rant on Kenny G:
He f**king blows.
[–]sardinski 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
The problem is that the average listener can't tell the two of them apart. They look alike and sound similar. Heck, they've even toured together. Pat's a whiner, even if he's right.
This may be a bit out of place in this thread, but I've noticed a couple cases of this in hip hop mixtapes. There will be a verse by Notorious BIG put into a song. Maybe it's more acceptable in Hip Hop since sampling is it its nature?
Yea that's a good point. Jazz by it's nature is about improvising and being original and creative.
I don't think it was sampling. I think G just played over the whole song. Don't know, though, haven't heard it.
[–]peted1884 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
I saw Metheny live about 20 years ago. I was a bumpkin. I kept waiting for a melody to come through. Now that I'm all grown up I don't even bother trying. These jazz guys are so snooty. I'll take someone like Bill Frisell over Metheny any day. Oh, and I don't care about Kenny G. What little I've heard is just elevator music.
Pat Metheny can really play. That being said, I'm not his hugest fan either. Alot of his music that I've heard sounds too much like smooth jazz, and I'm not really into that. Kenny G however can't play for shit.
Damn straight!
[–]nakedcellist 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
There was a good joke about Kenny G in Wayne's world 2. In fact, it was the only good joke in that movie, contrary to thr brilliant original.
Care to share?
[–]Quady 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
Sorry, I don't listen to Jazz much, and don't know who Kenny G or Pat Metheny are.
What's the issue here? Metheny is pissed because someone he considers an inferior player has made a lot of money and had the audacity to create a terrible album that includes Louis Armstrong songs?
I mean, I understand that that is annoying, but is it really worth all the hullubaloo that Metheny is getting up to here? This stuff happens all the time in popular music and the consumer culture we're in. I mean, look at that "Whatcha Say" song with that rapper shittyfying Hide and Seek. Sure, it's dumb, and I don't have much respect for the rapper, but i'm not freaking out about it as a musician.
So please, if there's more to this issue than what I'm seeing here, someone please explain, because I'd like to know why Metheny is so pissed and why so many of you seem to agree with him.
Well, I think an interviewer asked Metheny what his opinion was on Kenny G. It's not like he sits around all day feeling bitter about Kenny G's success, I'm sure he has better things to do. And it's not that Pat Metheny considers Kenny G to be an inferior player, he really is an inferior player. No matter of opinion here, just a fact.
[–]Jojje22 -5 points-4 points-3 points 1 year ago
Meh. Hipster bullshit.
I find there are two sorts of musicians: those who play what people want to hear, and those who play what they want to play. Kenny G is of course part of the former, but that doesn't mean that he's less of a musician. Music is, at it's core, entertainment. Depending on what you play, you entertain different people, and to say that Kenny G is less of a musician is saying that those who enjoy his music are doing it wrong. It's all subjective, though, one could just as easily say that some really technical musician who has less fans than Kenny G is completely redundant because he can't make a lot of people connect, and that his "few" fans don't know how to appreciate music because their interest differs from the popular opinion.
[–]bobbinsc[S] 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago
I'm going to disagree with your statement "Music is, at it's core, entertainment." That's not why I play music, and I don't listen to music to be entertained. I guess for some people, that's all it is, and that's fine. But music has the potential to communicate something deeper, and Kenny G doesn't have any concept of what that is.
[–]kublakhan 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
But music has the potential to communicate something deeper, and Kenny G doesn't have any concept of what that is.
This is absurd. There are plenty of people who buy Kenny G records exactly for the reason you are stating here-- to feel inspired and to connect with something deeper (why the hell do you think this guy got so popular to begin with??). Maybe Kenny G is "bad music" for people who "don't know anything about music," but if so, that's an argument about taste, not about potential to be meaningful. Music is not objectively good or bad, nor is it inherently valuable and provoking or not. It is what you make of it, which obviously is highly correlated to a lot of personal factors like your socioeconomic background, your education level, your exposure to different media, etc. Some people whose backgrounds are different than yours happen to like Kenny G, and they connect with it on a level that you don't. I think it says more about the people than it does about Kenny G.
OK, good point, maybe you're right. If you eat nothing but fast food your entire life, you might think that a big mac is the greatest thing ever. However, once you learn to appreciate a really good steak, that big mac will seem like garbage. I suppose it's all relative, to a certain extent. I stand by my statement though. I don't think Kenny G has a concept of that deeper state of being. Some musicians/composers have that burning drive to create. Listen to Beethoven's symphonies. They're really saying something, really making a statement. It's not about entertaining people. Entertainment is more of like a comfortable distraction from reality, from your present time and place. Real music doesn't distract you from that, it pushes that in your face. Maybe Kenny G is entertaining for some people.
[–]dismember 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago
FAIL.
You have some good points. I think there is definitely a difference between entertainment and art. Sometimes, something can be both at the same time. In the case of G, it's always just the one.
[–]butteryhotcopporn -7 points-6 points-5 points 1 year ago
What is this, easy target week?
Seriously, this guy has the self importance of a Redditor, so I'm not surprised this submission has taken off.
Also, it's a bit day when lite jazz artists have better feuds than rap.
Pat Metheny is "lite jazz"? Excuse me champ, but your ignorance is showing.
[–]butteryhotcopporn -1 points0 points1 point 1 year ago
Sucks as much as litejazz
Yes, your ignorance sucks exactly as much as "lite jazz" does.
[–]butteryhotcopporn 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
Dude, this is weather channel music
Don't get much smoother than this
You clearly know nothing about fusion or jazz in general.
Fusion? Like Bitches Brew?
Metheny is Lite fusion then.
Flounder on, uninformed troll... Flounder on.
Look, you're denying evidence in your face. Bitches brew.... fusion.
Metheny, that's some lite sounding shit right there.
I imagine 50 year old rich white people like putting this on in the time share
[–]onebit -1 points0 points1 point 1 year ago
whatev
[–]goingnorthwest -1 points0 points1 point 1 year ago
Gah! I hate white text on a black background... now I'm blind.
[–]kublakhan -1 points0 points1 point 1 year ago
I'm no fan of Kenny G, but this just sounds bitter and complainy.
[–]Chris1218218 -2 points-1 points0 points 1 year ago
Musicians who rip on other, more successful musicians are douches.
He's not going on like this because Kenny G is a bad musician. There are tons of bad musicians in the world. His point is that it's wrong that he has more of a successful career in a style of music that requires virtuosity and improvising abilities, neither of which Kenny G possesses. He also talks about how disrespectful it was of him to record himself over Louis Armstrong.
Just because Kenny G happens to play music that is vaguely related to that of Pat Metheny, suddenly Kenny G has to subscribe to Pat Metheny's value system and live by his rules of propriety? GTFO. If I want to play along with Louis Armstong, then I'm gonna do it. I don't give a shit if you don't like it. I never announced to the world that I'd clear my actions with you first.
That's not what music is about. You sound like a stubborn 5 year old. "I don't care if I sound like shit, it's MY music and I'm gonna play MY music the way I want!" Pat Metheny mentioned that Kenny G consistently plays sharp. Is it ok to say, "I don't care if it's not in tune, that's my artistic interpretation."? Sounds like some bullshit to me. As musicians, we've got to hold ourselves to the highest standard we can, otherwise none of us would practice because we'd just be content with sounding like shit.
[–]kublakhan 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago*
If anyone sounds like a stubborn 5 year old, it's Pat Metheny. Establishing "minimum standards" that all artists have to abide by is just a way for those who consider themselves the cultural elite to push their views on everyone else and maintain control over "how things should be"-- which, frankly, has no place in art. Sorry! If we had listened to everyone who wanted to maintain a status quo in music, we'd never have had the Beatles, the Velvet Underground, John Coltrane, Led Zeppelin, or any other great music that has come out in the past half century. These types of rules only hold art back. I'm not saying Kenny G is some great innovator, but it's not really relevant if he is or he isn't. No one in art should have to play by the rules of anyone else. That's bullshit. I'm just saying, why the hell should I not play with Louis Armstrong just because Pat Metheny finds it offensive? Why should Pat fucking Metheny be the ultimate arbiter of what is in good/bad taste, and what is/isn't okay for someone else to do artistically? Pat Metheny doesn't own Louis Armstrong more than Kenny G does. Art is what you make of it, and there's no place for one guy (or group of people) to set the rules of propriety because it undermines the entire premise of art.
It's okay to think someone sucks, but this guy just sounds embittered and pathetic-- and his tirade itself is in glaringly poor taste and form, ironically enough. The guy is basically just criticizing a guy for gaining popular appeal.
Establishing standards doesn't mean that you can't do your own thing and be original. Kenny G has done nothing original, and the only thing that makes him different from other jazz legends is that he's not a good musician. That's not up for debate, it's a fact. Holding him up to the standards that have been set by John Coltrane and Wayne Shorter doesn't mean he has to sound just like them, it means he's gotta have the chops and the originality of sound that those guys had.
You've completely missed the point of what I'm saying. Setting standards itself is a way of reinforcing status quo, shutting out people who don't play according to mainstream, popular, or insider protocols. People [aka "cultural authorities"] who have tried to set standards in the past have condemned everything from blues to jazz to rock to rap; the argument that they have consistently made is that "this isn't music" or that "this doesn't require any talent."
That's not up for debate, it's a fact.
Are you saying that there are objective standards for musicianship? I can think plenty of very well known musicians aren't particularly original but who are loved (e.g. Wynton Marsalis); I can think of any number of musicians who aren't technically very gifted but who are legendary (e.g. Bob Dylan, Kurt Cobain); musicians who can barely play their instruments who are highly influential (e.g. the Shaggs). Music is what you make of it. Yes, you can say compare someone's ability to someone else's virtuosity, but when it comes down to it, music like all types of art, is highly subjective; no one person's opinion counts more than anyone else's. If you like something, then consider it a function of your personal history more than your ability to "see through the bullshit."
Bob Dylan and Kurt Cobain weren't trying to play jazz. There are right ways and wrong ways to play an instrument. If you're a pianist, you need to know how to move to play through certain phrases. Sometimes, you need to rotate your wrist. Sometimes you have to know how and when to raise and drop your wrists. If you want to play a C major arpeggio a few octaves in a row, fast, you'll have to lift your wrist on your third finger and drop it on your thumb. If you refuse to do this because it's your "artistic interpretation," then you won't be able to play through that phrase quickly and smoothly. In music, you've got to get your ego out of your way. There are right ways of playing things, and there are wrong ways of playing things. It has to do with physics, and you can't argue with it. Maybe Kurt Cobain was an influential artist to many people, but I have no problem stating that he was a shitty guitarist. Kenny G may have been influential to soccer mom's across the county, but he was not a good saxophonist. That's not my opinion. I guess I'm saying, yes, there are objective standards for musicianship. Denying these standards sounds like hippy touchy feely bullshit to me. "Oh hey, you can play anything you'd like because it's your music and you can do it however you want." Yes, it's true that you can do and play anything with music, but you've got to do the work first and get your ego out of the way. You can't just play any shit you want and say, "It's ok, this is my music so I can do anything." You've got to put in the time and practice and honestly ask yourself, "Does this work? Does this sound good?" Once you've asked those questions and been honest with yourself, then you can start breaking the rules.
The idea that "good music" requires talent is kind of misleading the way I see it. I guess you could say some people are predisposed when it comes to learning and playing music, but I disagree with the concept that some of us are talented and others aren't. John Coltrane used to practice over 12 hours a day. I've played piano for 12 years and I practice for hours every day. Not 12 hours, because I have a day job, but my point is I've put in the work.
So I guess what I'm trying to say is, setting standards isn't about making sure everybody plays just like John Coltrane, Wayne Shorter, or whoever. Those guys played with conviction. Kenny G has no conviction, because his goal is how to appeal to the masses. Just because Kenny G isn't playing like those guys, does NOT mean he's original or groundbreaking. It's not about playing like those guys, it's about finding your own voice and playing with conviction. Kenny G can't play his fucking instrument. Sorry if I'm coming off aggressive.
I am a guitarist. I have played for 19 years, and I used to play for 5-6 hours a day until other commitments naturally took over. I still play regularly though-- probably 3-4 hours a week. I appreciate technical prowess and ability. I appreciate "playing with soul." I understand all that crap. My point is not that these things don't exist or that they're irrelevant. I'm saying that the whole idea of what constitutes "good" and "soulful" is based on your own set of tastes; this is not "hippy touchy feely bullshit." It's simply nuance, though I realize that the lack of clear categorization and divisions makes the world a more ambiguous place.
According to what you are saying, we could make a mathematical equation that, when fed in with all the numbers (e.g. how long someone has been playing, how many hours they practice, the number of notes they can play a minutes, etc.), can tell us whether something is good or not. This should immediately strike you as troubling and reductionist. The reason this is the case is because tastes differ greatly. Personally, I like John Coltrane a lot, but I'm not such a big Miles Davis fan. I could try to speculate on why this is, but ultimately it would be a process of rationalization. I just don't like Miles Davis that much; it's just a taste thing, even though he's almost universally loved by jazz afficionados, he's a pioneer in the field, he's technically gifted, etc.
In my opinion, it's fair to say that someone sucks, and that you don't like someone's music. It's fair to say that you think an entire aesthetic is horrible. But I draw the line at taking steps to undermine and destroy someone else's art form because it doesn't live up to your ideals or expectations of what art should be.
I'll agree to disagree.
[–]drizzlelicious -1 points0 points1 point 1 year ago
So, this might just be me, but I don't ever notice that Kenny G is sharp or out of rhythm. But then again, I've only heard studio recorded songs and have never seen him play live.
[–]10000cowpies -2 points-1 points0 points 1 year ago
if it wernt for mr g i would not know how awsome sax could be
[–]stubble 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago
Because John Coltrane didn't make any records worth listening to?
[–]audiotechnica 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
Hush, we all know you secretly listen to Mr. Acker Bilk.
[–]cleverinspiringname -1 points0 points1 point 1 year ago
i wouldn't really call this a rant. i believe i would call this an articulate, concise critique of a hack artist by a renowned and respected musician to be studied and referenced for the good of posterity. upvote anyway, cause the message needs to be heard.
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