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Which do you find more concerning: right libertarianism or state socialism, and why? (self.LibertarianLeft)
submitted 1 year ago by JesusFreakingChrist
[–]vaguelyhuman 6 points7 points8 points 1 year ago
By right-libertarian, do you mean Mises Institute type or pot-smoking Republicans?
[–]Madfoot713 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
That's what I was wondering too.
[–]Isenhatesyou 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago
Stalin killed millions of people and put the Soviet Union into space. King Leopold killed millions of people and the Congo is still a shithole. So.
[–]whatada 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
The fuck? You're saying that King Leopold was a libertarian?
[–]Bhima 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago*
What I find most concerning are the folks who are flat out Right Wing Authoritarians who honestly think they are Libertarians and spend a lot of time repeating the propaganda they've been fed.
Edit for the why: Because they enthusiastically support and vote in truly scary people. And once in office these people attach language to further their right-wing authoritarian agenda to every single piece of legislation that passes through their office.
The State Socialists generally either are effecting countries I do not live in, or speaking in purely hypothetical terms.
The Right Libertarians, as far as I can tell, are in danger of being completely co-opted. (At least in countries I pay attention to as an American Expat living in Europe)
[–]JesusFreakingChrist[S] 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
The same could be said of left wing authoritarians.
[–]Bhima 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago
I am trying to think of honest actual left wing authoritarians in my sphere of interest and can only think of a few. So, I don't really get worked up over them.
[–]Libertarian_Atheist 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
It seems that everyone is giving you answers regarding the people who hold whatever particular ideology instead of the ideology itself.
I've spent years studying PRC history, the history of the Kuomintang and the history of North Korea.
The difference between honest right libertarianism (not libertarian conservativism) and state socialism (not what we have in the USA right now and not social democracy) is that in the first one you'd be free to carve out your own lifestyle if you wanted (outside of the over-extended property laws which I think would eventually aid in guiding a right libertarian state back to full statism by overextension of governance). In a state socialism you couldn't carve out your own lifestyle, you would be forced to work where you were told, sleep where you were told, share with whom you were told and act / dress as you were told.
I think that until you speak to a lot of these people that come out of China and Russia, you might think socialism through state coercion is better than stupidity with little coercion.
You don't need to trust me, go talk to an older person who lived under the PRC and escaped it. Go talk to a middle aged person who was involved as a student with the Great Cultural Revolution and then summarily shipped off to farms for reeducation because the powers given them by the state to act as the Red Guard had "gotten to their heads."
No, as I had said before, if half the world were libertarian socialists and the other half libertarian right, I'd be the happiest man in the world watching the debate in deep contentment.
[–]thezombiebot 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago
There is nothing inherently wrong with either of them. Any idea carried to an absurd extreme will become dangerous.
[–]Madfoot713 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago
Right libertarians. Statists may kill me and torture me if I object to their policies, but libertarians DISAGREE WITH ME OMFG KILLTHEMALL
[–]caboj 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago
I find right libertarianism more concerning, though it depends on what kind of state socialism we're talking about. If we're referencing the state socialism of the soviet block with all the manufactured inequities which thus necessitated the state's intervention in every day life, I think that that is about as disgusting as most of the nasty old white dudes who yell about how affirmative action is destroying the United States.
Really, I'd dispense with both of them.
[–]JesusFreakingChrist[S] 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
This is a generalization, but in my experience right libertarians are more dogmatic and harder to reason with than state socialists.
[–]hugolp 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago*
Are you kidding me? In my experience socialist anarchists are mostly quite ignorant specially refering to economics and you can not even have a rational discussion with them. And the problem is not that they dont know, its that they seem incapable of thinking rationally. There are exceptions, but the majority just keep repeating talking points without being able of any degree of rational thinking. It gets fustrating.
I lean left, I like the spirit of socialism, but I really really really can not stand the majority of socialists.
[–]PsyDad874 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
If we're basing this on an axis of authoritarian/libertarian and right/left, I find them frightening in the following order:
I agree with Bhima's sentiment on the Right Authoritarians in America thinking they're Libertarian because they watch Glenn Beck. Pretty much every "Libertarian" I've come across in this vein heavily support the military industrial complex with a fervor that is quite disheartening.
[–]Octal040 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago*
I tend to be more concerned with state socialism than right-libertarianism. If RLs stick to their stated goals and principles it will be easier to live outside or compete with their systems.
As it stands with previous and current state socialist systems, you must participate. Too many atrocities are committed to ensure you participate.
Of course I'm counting on RLs to be moral and consistent in their actions. That may be asking too much when profit is the sole motivation in all human interaction. Also, I base my observation/opinion on a stateless or ultra-minarchist RL society. If the Libertarian Party was suddenly voted into power in the US, today, I would see that being nearly as catastrophic as Stalin taking over.
[–]groovitational 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago*
Honest question: Why do "left"-libertarians always insist on lumping any libertarians/ancaps/whatever who don't agree with them into some straw man "right-" classification?
EDIT: I apologize if the question sounds like a bit of a straw man itself, but I still do genuinely want to know.
[–]EmbraceUnity 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
I think a better term for them is "royal libertarians"
http://www.cooperativeindividualism.org/sullivanonlibertarians.html
I can see why people might want to call that right-wing, though that obscures the heart of their folly.
[–]groovitational 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
Ah yes, the "land-use" issue. While I think I lean more towards the "individual property rights in land" camp, I also feel that the cost of securing large parcels of unused land would, at least in the eyes of the land holder in question, create similar incentives to a Georgian tax.
While the land issue is clearly an important one, there's another that always plagues my mind: why the insistence that unions would be a strong force in a free market, while also insisting (correctly, in my opinion), that cartels are unsustainable in a free market?
[–]EmbraceUnity 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago*
At least historically, unions weren't just pure bureaucratic collective bargaining apparatuses. Many had strong mutual aid programs and emphasized skillsharing and so on. Also, there is a political element to them which acts as a counterbalance to other organized sectors of society, and even those who recognize the perversity of certain unions aren't necessarily going to make opposing them a high priority in lieu of their relative powerlessness.
Although it might be nice not to have lots of special interests fighting for privileges, as long as that is the case the order in which they are attempted to be dismantled is important.
I would consider the idea of unions to be more akin to a corporation than cartels. Some corporations are monopolistic or oligopolistic, and some aren't. Perhaps nowadays unions are worse than they used to be, but a lot of that actually has to do with state intervention in the way unions are allowed to be organized.
Just as state interventions such as corporate personhood and limited liability create perverse incentives within corporations, the Wagner and Taft-Hartley acts create perverse incentives among unions.
Though I'm really not interested in any of that anymore per se. In Henry George's book Protection or Free Trade he likens the idea of protectionism to one of a series of "robbers" who robs you every day on your way home from work, but says that as long as there is a final "robber who takes all that is left," there can be no benefit to eliminating the other robbers.
As Ricardo showed, with his Law of Rent, in an otherwise free market the Land Monopoly takes all that is left (save enough to keep you from starving). For this reason, right-libertarian reforms which ignore the Land Monopoly would take us to a Malthusian condition, though not for the reasons Malthus argued. (Ricardo roundly stomped him in debates)
[–]tygg3n 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
They could both end the same way. Doesn't matter what you call it.
[–]impshakes 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago
I don't post here very often but it seems to me Anarchists who wish to share the means of production are getting just as bad as the right. They are all yelling louder and closing their ears more and more. There are many FB pages for anarchism and there is a massive schism going on between the ancaps and the ansocs with the ancaps seeming to be more calm and rational from my point of view.
FYI I consider myself a voluntaryist.
[–]JesusFreakingChrist[S] 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago
I've read a bit about voluntaryism, and I like what I've read. I usually label myself a mutualist, and wonder how you feel the two approaches to anarchism compare.
[–]impshakes 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
As far as I understand things, Mutualism is much more specific/concrete about how markets and production would ideally work. Voluntaryism is a lot more open-ended. I prefer to leave it that way personally. My feeling is that things that happen organically are more sustainable. So I wouldn't be against Mutualism, I just wouldn't try to define anyone else's marketplace.
Traditional anarchists are going to deny mutualism on the individual means of production. They firmly believe in collectivist ownership of the means. This ultimately means you cannot own land.
I struggle with that personally, but ultimately I don't think it works. But as I said in another post on here: I refuse to take any strong position (other than for science/enlightenment of the debate). I think that is cognitively dangerous since you force yourself to cheer for your position which is dishonest.
A lot of anarchists that I have encountered lately aren't interested in hearing your point of view. They demand you listen to them. That REALLY turns me off and I don't think it is the right way to think about social problems at all. But that's not inherent to anarchists of course. Everyone does it no matter what their philosophy.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago*
As someone who used to be a collectivist anarchist, I agree. The crazies on the ansoc side are half the reason I really started looking at market anarchism. I guess I'd consider myself an agorist now.
Edit: I'm not implying that all or even most ansocs are crazy.
Isn't agorism a subset of anrcho-socialism? I have a hard time distinguishing between mutualism, agorism, voluntaryism, anrcho-socialism, and libertarian socialism. They all seem to be reaching the same conclusion...
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
It depends on the agorist. Some of them claim fervently to be capitalists. Others are avowedly socialists. I don't particularly care about either label. Agorism seems to me to sit right about on the border.
[–]fubo 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
Agorism could be described as market anarchism plus counter-economics: non-capitalist, non-statist libertarianism plus the idea of subverting the statist system through the expansion of the black market.
I follow a guy on FB called The Punk Patriot. I liked what he was saying about civil rights but one time he posted something like:
"SOCIALISM: educating America FOR FREE since 1791!"
I'm like: but it's not free? And I had a shit ton of ansocs yelling at me about "point of sale" and a bunch of other bullshit. They didn't want to have a rational discussion, they wanted to rally and yell.
I'm in another argument where the never ending "fireman and roads" strawman argument is coming up. When some of these people argue, they have already decided their position and are cognitively locked upon it.
I try to keep an open mind. I used to be more right libertarian but I have swayed left in the last year, thanks probably to Glenn Beck and the media war machine.
For me I think liberal concerns are the right ones, I just disagree with how to achieve them.
[–]HeisenbergUncert 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
I think the issue is falsely framed. Our current problem isn't with a particular philosophy but rather with the global corruption of state power. I view any "this paradigm vs that paradigm" discussions with great suspicion, as that seems to be the primary operandi of the administrative and corporate sock puppets.
[–]Elliptical_Tangent 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
Totalitarianism is tyranny. Anarcho-capitalists are corporate apologists. It's impossible to choose between them, because both are horrible... although I guess either would be a slight improvement over the state "capitalism" we have now in the US.
If we could have state socialism a la EU member countries, I'd go with that in a heartbeat.
I wouldn't consider the EU countries to be state socialist since the state controls far less than half of the means of production. Social democracy is a better term, though I agree that it is an improvement over what we have (corporatism, neoliberalism, etc).
http://c4ss.org/content/5595
Then I pass. Totalitarianism and anarcho-capitalism result in the same thing: loss of freedom. The A-Cs refuse to see it, but corporations would be our new overlords. All the tyranny, none of the perks.
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[–]vaguelyhuman 6 points7 points8 points ago
[–]Madfoot713 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Isenhatesyou 5 points6 points7 points ago
[–]whatada 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]Bhima 5 points6 points7 points ago*
[–]JesusFreakingChrist[S] 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Bhima 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]Libertarian_Atheist 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]thezombiebot 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]Madfoot713 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]caboj 3 points4 points5 points ago
[–]JesusFreakingChrist[S] 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]hugolp 1 point2 points3 points ago*
[–]PsyDad874 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]Octal040 2 points3 points4 points ago*
[–]groovitational 1 point2 points3 points ago*
[–]EmbraceUnity 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]groovitational 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]EmbraceUnity 0 points1 point2 points ago*
[–]tygg3n 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]impshakes 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]JesusFreakingChrist[S] 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]impshakes 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points ago*
[–]JesusFreakingChrist[S] 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]fubo 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]impshakes 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]HeisenbergUncert 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Elliptical_Tangent 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]EmbraceUnity 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Elliptical_Tangent 0 points1 point2 points ago