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[–]briesa37 11 points12 points ago

We are not foolish enough to believe that power can be abolished. We just see a difference between power over (domination) and power with (cooperation).

What currently stops you from random destruction and murder? Is it fear of the police or connection to your neighborhood/neighbors? People who have their basic needs met (food, water, shelter) and feel like they are a valued part of a community do not typically engage in anti-social behavior. Look at how we behave after a natural disaster. There is some scrambling to secure basic needs, but for the most part a spirit of cooperation and mutual aid prevails.

[–]shoseki[S] 1 point2 points ago

Generally speaking, what stops me from random destruction and murder is a general empathic feeling towards others, a respect for things like basic human rights (life and property) and respect of the work of others. However, these beliefs are not shared by everyone, else we wouldn't need police to enforce the laws that were invented to attempt to solve the issues humans have.

People who have their basic needs met (food, water, shelter) and feel like they are a valued part of a community do not typically engage in anti-social behavior.

No but there is an element that does thrive on chaos and destruction, I don't think there is any denying it. We have active enforcement of some (fairly arbritrary) laws, but it still doesn't discourage/stop people from breaking them.

I don't believe there is such a thing as power over or power with. Power / domination is all that exists, except that we can escape it sometimes by setting up overarching systems that protect us. Want to get rid of the problem makers / people who don't respect that? They will merely form a competing group who will then attempt to subjugate / dominate you, and we go back to talking about tribalistic behaviour.

[–]SpicyCage 9 points10 points ago

I'd tend to agree with this. But it's largely for that reason that I'm against a government monopoly on the wielding of chaos and destruction in the name of national wealth. The sort of thing that states typically engage in would be called criminal if an ordinary person were to do it. And if a community would rise up against a child killer, then they have just as much moral authority to rise up against the state (which also kills children, but on a more horrifying scale). Especially a state that wears a thin veil of legitimacy by deriving its authority from the people (which, as anybody who reads the news even badly understands, isn't really the case at all).

There's a story by St. Augustine about a time when Alexander the Great captured a pirate causing havoc in his waters. "How dare you molest the sea?!" demanded Alexander. The pirate responded, "How dare you molest the whole world? Because I do it with a little ship only, I am called a thief; you, doing it with a great navy, are called an emperor."

[–]shoseki[S] 2 points3 points ago

But it's largely for that reason that I'm against a government monopoly on the wielding of chaos and destruction in the name of national wealth.

Tell me if I am wrong, but this sentence implies that either the government shouldn't have a monopoly on the wielding of chaos and destruction (perhaps by sharing some of that power with corporations, non-government organisations etc) or that the government shouldn't have any power in that regards.

The government literally only exists because it has power. Governments are "removed" all the time because of a Coup - the army decides that for one reason or another, it wants to put someone else in charge. We heard it many times in 2011. If you don't want the government to have that power, you don't want that government to exist, I don't see what other alternative there is.

The sort of thing that states typically engage in would be called criminal if an ordinary person were to do it. And if a community would rise up against a child killer, then they have just as much moral authority to rise up against the state (which also kills children, but on a more horrifying scale). Especially a state that wears a thin veil of legitimacy by deriving its authority from the people (which, as anybody who reads the news even badly understands, isn't really the case at all).

I can see that you are cynical about the democratic process, and I hear you. That is for an entirely different discussion I believe. The problem is that "a community rising up against a child killer" is exactly what you don't want. We have a society where extremely clever people can get on with their jobs that we all benefit from, without some random mob running through declaring iPhones the work of "witchcraft". Call me snobby, but the general population is not the smartest or the most qualified to make complex decisions, reliying too often on "common sense" which is exactly worthless because it is common. Every other day you hear about some random guy in a house somewhere who has been scared to death because some dumbass says "a pedo lives upstairs" and the local mob start marching down his house. I'm sure certain in middle east countries where "local communities" stone women to death because they were raped would be a good case against local communities.

There's a story by St. Augustine about a time when Alexander the Great captured a pirate causing havoc in his waters. "How dare you molest the sea?!" demanded Alexander. The pirate responded, "How dare you molest the whole world? Because I do it with a little ship only, I am called a thief; you, doing it with a great navy, are called an emperor."

They are both as bad as each other. If the thief had a small community behind him, he would be called a hero. Popularity is too arbritrary to decide if something is right.

[–]SpicyCage 2 points3 points ago*

The government literally only exists because it has power. [...] If you don't want the government to have that power, you don't want that government to exist.

Well, of course I don't want that government to exist. I'm an anarchist, after all. :)

... [T]he general population is not the smartest or the most qualified to make complex decisions....

Common sense: Where it's sensible, it isn't common. Where it's common, it isn't sensible. Agreed. That said, why would I want to allow them to delegate their stupidity to somebody who makes all the rules and has all the best guns?

The problem is that "a community rising up against a child killer" is exactly what you don't want. [...] Popularity is too arbitrary to decide if something is right.

This is also why I'm more a fan of individualist anarchism. The idea of the "tyranny of the majority" still rings true to me, largely because I am from America, where the real-life bad guys often draw strength in numbers. Anarchists, in my view, have been so largely-influenced by the idea of "Mr. Moneybags: Exploiter of the Worker" that they fail to understand that people usually acquire this much power due to working alongside others whose (in the words of George Carlin) "interests converge."

I, on the other hand, have different interests. Of course, I admit those interests have been largely decided by the particular circumstances of my birth/history/environment. That said, the primary justification for my anti-authoritarian attitude is largely anarchic in nature.

[–]shoseki[S] 1 point2 points ago

Well, of course I don't want that government to exist. I'm an anarchist, after all. :)

I don't think that is a useful opinion to stand on its own. I might as well say "I'm anti moon, by definition as I am an antimoontarian".

You can label yourself something if you want, I guess I would label myself as a liberal with conservative fiscal opinions (I guess a sort of anti-libertarian). I believe that companies are essentially cancerous and if you left them long enough without oversight, you'd end up with a single company that owns everything.

That said, why would I want to allow them to delegate their stupidity to somebody who makes all the rules and has all the best guns?

Well, the state usually has separate branches for those defining law, policies and enacting them. Professional codes of ethics are involved with judges/lawyers for example that don't affect other professions, so for example lawyers will quite happily defend a man who is accused of the most heinous crimes, simply because he deserves (as do all) a fair trial. Common sense (and society without frameworks) would simply look at the evidence and summararily hang him.

This is also why I'm more a fan of individualist anarchism. The idea of the "tyranny of the majority" still rings true to me, largely because I am from America, where the real-life bad guys often draw strength in numbers. Anarchists, in my view, have been so largely-influenced by the idea of "Mr. Moneybags: Exploiter of the Worker" that they fail to understand that people usually acquire this much power due to working alongside others whose (in the words of George Carlin) "interests converge."

I am a biiiiig fan of Carlin, but I would have to see where he says this. Interests do converge, but usually because it is to the benefit of those involved. You can be an individual anarchist if you want, you could buy an island in the pacific and live on your own where you don't have to face the issues that most of us face. But you are avoiding the issues rather than facing them. In a stateless society with limited land on your island, with room enough to shelter one, how are you and a guest going to decide who gets to sleep dry tonight? What if that other person pulled you out of bed in the middle of the night and broke your rules?

That said, the primary justification for my anti-authoritarian attitude is largely anarchic in nature.

An anti-authoritarian attitude isn't necessarily negative. Some people are more like dogs, and want to be part of the crowd, and some people are like cats, and are individuals. There are different personality types, and our society has people of all types and has to cope with people of all types. So it needs to give you the space you need to not feel dominated.

[–]thenoorys 2 points3 points ago

Your analysis is leaving out a lot of variables concerning how our current society may be shaping those traits you are kind of (no offense) sloppily attributing to human nature. Is it nurture or nature?

Anarchism has a long history of getting to the root of this, discovering how unequal power relationships can also be a creative force that molds and nurtures anti-social behaviors. For one example, look into some radical feminist works, and you might realize that some of those people you call dogs or natural followers are actually just the systematically silent and repressed.

[–]shoseki[S] 0 points1 point ago

Chimpanzees and other animals are assholes to each other and play power games, they still manage to have build socities together (but they have no concept of property). I would say that if you have to raise someone in a culture simply for that culture to work, there is potential for anyone raised in it to simply reject it, and then how does that culture respond? It seems like everyone has to be literally indoctrinated and anyone who doesn't conform would have to be isolated from the group for fear of contaminating them...

[–]schote 1 point2 points ago*

Are you making pro-anarchist arguments now? Sorry, but I can't tell.

Indoctrination is education without discussion, questioning and critical thinking. A society without those 3 would not be anarchistic at all.

It seems like everyone has to be literally indoctrinated and anyone who doesn't conform would have to be isolated from the group for fear of contaminating them...

That sounds exactly like the prefered strategy used to deal with anarchism and Anarchists. The general opinion and the mainstream media paint the picture of a nihilistic bogeyman with a bag full of bombs.

[–]shoseki[S] 0 points1 point ago

So you have a society that you have created, where everyone gets on and respects each other - and someone comes along who doesn't agree and wants to take over. I don't see how anarchism provides a framework to prevent this from happening - or to prevent a splinter group from forming, separating, and then becoming another "tribe".

I still have the opinion that anarchism is idealised tribalism, but that economy (specifically scarcity, which will never be resolved) and human psychology will eventually tear apart, if not outside pressure.

[–]SpicyCage 0 points1 point ago*

Companies and labels: Fair enough. Granted, I'm sure you have reasons for believing what you believe and for labeling yourself in the way that you do. So do I.

Checks & Balances: Hasn't worked out too well. Despite the illegality of the actions of one particular branch of government, dead bodies continue to pile up. Decade after decade after decade. Lysander Spooner once said: "[W]hether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist." I agree with him.

In a stateless society with limited land on your island, with room enough to shelter one, how are you and a guest going to decide who gets to sleep dry tonight? What if that other person pulled you out of bed in the middle of the night and broke your rules?

That wouldn't be anarchic, then, would it? There would be a ruler, and one being ruled. Anarchy is not feudalism, it's not warlordism, and it isn't alpha male domination. It's not merely a state of statelessness. It's a state of leaderlessness. To that end, anarchism is a series of philosophies that seek to establish a societal system that allows people to deal with one another as equals.

Anarchy, I would argue, is a utopian ideal, which is why I'm also skeptical of anybody (anarchists included) who claims to find a cure-all solution to society's ills.

[–]shoseki[S] 2 points3 points ago

Checks & Balances: Hasn't worked out too well. Despite the illegality of the actions of one particular branch of government, dead bodies continue to pile up. Decade after decade after decade. Lysander Spooner once said: "[W]hether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist." I agree with him.

Absolutely. Ultimately, laws are irrelevant if they can't be enforced. Over the years, the US has been guilty of some horrendous war crimes, but because nobody has the power to enforce those laws, it goes unpunished. Other countries do terrible things and countries try to use sanctions to influence them - thats pretty much the only power they have.

That wouldn't be anarchic, then, would it? There would be a ruler, and one being ruled. Anarchy is not feudalism, it's not warlordism, and it isn't alpha male domination. It's not merely a state of statelessness. It's a state of leaderlessness. To that end, anarchism is a series of philosophies that seek to establish a societal system that allows others to deal with one another as equals.

What I meant was, that there is no rule and no enforcement of that rules to prevent one person becoming a ruler and one being ruled. Or to prevent one person stabbing the other in the middle of the night. There aren't any rules, so anything goes. Or am I fundamentally misunderstanding this?

[–]SpicyCage 1 point2 points ago

The thing about anarchy is that it doesn't necessarily entail no rules. There would be, in any anarchism-based society, rules. Or, more accurately, socially-considered and accepted standards of behavior. It just means no hierarchical governing body that is susceptible to corruption.

[–]thenoorys 1 point2 points ago*

I think you might just be fundamentally misunderstanding it. Anarchism is the absence of arbitrary social hierarchies and the pursuit of a more egalitarian, fair and altruistic society, it is both a movement with a history of praxis and a personal and ethical philosophy, it is both idealistic and practical plus constantly evolving.

Anarchism is the absence of rulers not rules. We can provide the rules(or common law, social contracts etc..) to help (because that's all anyone can do, even the state sanctioned police forces) prevent the situation of people stabbing each other in the middle of the night. And get this. without rulers.

EDIT: And this is why it might be a good idea to read up on some classical anarchist history. I think a lot of us here have been less than lazy in trying to explain our reasonings with you, and the history is truly a fascinating study in any case. You shouldn't get bored too easily.

[–]shoseki[S] 0 points1 point ago

I could ask the question, what social hierarchies are not arbritrary? They all look arbritrary to me... whether constructed at a national or a local scale.

Personal and ethical philosophies are worth pursuing, but I don't see how they translate to the very real needs to deal with people from very different economic and cultural backgrounds in a fair way.

[–]SpicyCage 0 points1 point ago

And this is why it might be a good idea to read up on some classical anarchist history. I think a lot of us here have been less than lazy....

Like I say, I am from America. :)

[–]SpicyCage 0 points1 point ago

Although, if I were put in a hypothetical kill-or-be-killed situation, it would depend on whether I value the other person's life more than mine. If it's a total stranger, odds are on my self-worth being higher.

In which case, I imagine I'd knife the bastidge and be done with it. Maybe even dig a barbeque pit, who knows? O_o

[–]corr0sive 0 points1 point ago

what stops me from random destruction and murder is a general empathic feeling towards others, a respect for things like basic human rights (life and property) and respect of the work of others.

Its this exact thing that humans would need to understand. If everyone was brought up and raised in an anarchist society, i think there would be a better chance to have a more peaceful society. You can always have guidelines for people to follow(or not) in a society, or a group of people. Not anything major, just dont kill other people, dont steal from your fellow man. If you stole from someone else, that should mean your okay with someone doing the same to you.

As for the seat of power, people give others power. Some people commandeer power, but people need to realize they are just a human being the same as them. No one has power over me, and i have power of no one else. We are all equal. If someone chooses to give me power, that is something that should be done on their own free will, but they should also know that it isnt necessary to give one person(or many) power over another.

Now if someone is taking power by gun-point, this is a different situation. If i were in a group and someone came in trying to elevate themselves over me by force, i would hope me and my fellow humans would see this wrong doing, and take action.

Honestly, I dont know how possible, or likely an anarchist society would be with the majority of humans being what they are. But then again, we weren't raised into that kind of society, so its very hard to say.

[–]shoseki[S] 0 points1 point ago

Its this exact thing that humans would need to understand.

Then you have already lost. As soon as people no longer care about others (because they are part of another crowd) they will no longer apply the same rules. Humans are naturally tribalistic, forming tight social circles that they care about - friends and family. The same respect does not apply to everyone.

And even if you managed to produce a society that acted in that way, there is nothing to stop another society that says "take what you can, screw them". How will you deal with that?

It strikes me that anarchy is sounding a little bit like the farming communities in caste based Japan - the farmers just want to get along, and aren't interested in supporting the Samurai, but suddenly get worried when bands of roaming Bandits come and steal all of their crops, so they hire some samura. Seven Samurai, great film, philosophically interesting too.

[–]corr0sive 0 points1 point ago

suddenly get worried when bands of roaming Bandits come and steal all of their crops

I know people are shitty, and i know they have the potential to kill and steal and do as the please. I personally have adopted this as one of my own rules.

Live peacefully, and treat others peacefully. If someone else wants to get violent, and hateful, then i feel like i have the right to do the same back to them, if i so choose.

If someone doesnt want to talk and act like a civil human being, then we can go back to the old ways and settle the dispute. Dont be an asshole, and i wont be a dick and fuck your shit up.

I think it would be key for the human race to be peaceful with each-other, but know when to defend ones self, and how to defend ones self. And only act with violence if the occasion calls for violence,l but only if all other ways of solving the problem have been exhausted.

[–]shoseki[S] -1 points0 points ago

What will you do if they band together (even under an evil state/dictatorship) and you are a disparate collective who can only get 50% support / motivation to go to war? Modern states have soldiers whose entire living is based on going to war, thats all they do and they are very good at it. Would you not have a paid for army?

[–]corr0sive 0 points1 point ago

Personally, if i had to pick and choose how i would want my society to be like, my entire populous would be a army. Everyone has had some form of military training. How to operate a rifle properly, how to work as a team to complete an objective. How to think on your feet, and solve problems as a person, and in a group.

It would be the only thing that would be mandatory. Cause i know that other people may come and take or exploit what we have created. I as a person would defend what i have worked for, and what i believe in till death, and i would hope others would be willing to fight and die for what they believe in. I wouldn't demand them to, i wouldn't require them to, because i know every person is different, and may not feel as strongly as I.

I think a fighting force would be stronger if they willingly fought for what they believed in, and not forced to fight for someone else. And the citizens would all have those skills and knowledge from training, one thing you know everyone had in common.

[–]shoseki[S] 0 points1 point ago

In order to be organised and to work together effectively as a team, armies tend to essentially be dictatorships, same as businesses. I ask the question again - how are you going to defend against a pack of organised bandits when you can only convince 50% of your group to defend your ideals?

What I am suggesting is that you'd need the loyalty of a tribe, but we are going back in circles again...

[–]schote 0 points1 point ago

The "Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army of Ukraine" is a historical example for the organization of an anarchistic army.

Now, if you can only convince 50% of your group to defend these ideals, their property and their lifes against some bandits swinging by to take everything from them, I would say that group has not much of a future anyway.

[–]shoseki[S] -1 points0 points ago

I don't understand. So your group will splinter and become an entirely separate group over which you have no control, and thus go to war with?

The article doesn't say what happened to that army. Did the system become unstable due to personal internal issues?

[–]sgguitar88 1 point2 points ago

Functioning anarchist communities would be very good at working together to defend themselves. They would have to be in order to have been functioning. If there is a truly superior force willing to take by violence, well then not much anybody can do about that either way, but it's extremely hard for an army to hold out long against an openly hostile populace.

[–]ASFDOKJOI3123 22 points23 points ago*

TRY THIS FAQ, OR MAYBE THIS ONE.

Related submissions: OK r/Anarchism, convince me - 1 Day ago.

What about human nature?

More in depth material: Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution

What about crime? Or defense against the power hungry?

Please. Read the sidebar. This is where I got all this information.

[–]shoseki[S] 13 points14 points ago*

I will read through and come back and comment, but my question was not the same as "give me information", I actually spent a bit of time explaining my current thought processes and what my current position was. I am fully aware that I could be coming from a position of ignorance, but I wanted to be clear what that position was.

For the record though, 100 comments is not that huge of a discussion, especially when a large number of them are not going to be of high quality. On the plus side though, Noam Chomsky (a man that I and many others have respect for) describes himself as an anarchist, so I am curious what the reasons are so that I can make up my mind for myself.

EDIT :

[4] Must an anarchist believe that humanity is inherently good? - 60+ Comments

I philosophically reject the notion of good & evil - whilst there are "themes" described with such words, ultimately they stem from ignorance, self interest, sociopathy /lack of empathy with others, ie "the self" vs enlightenment, philanthropy, altruism "the group". Each human has thoughts and feelings on each of these scales, however society "works" despite those differences, and the larger the society, the larger the sample and the more extreme the examples at each end of the spectrum you find people, the stronger the framework of society has to be in order for it to survive.

That is a massive supposition, and I am aware of it. How do I qualify that supposition? Well, we could take an example and run with it, though I am aware of appealling to emotion. How did pedofiles used to be tried before we had legal frameworks (and even more frameworks, such as those investing the catholicchurch)? Simple - they got away with it. Justice was not served. How did innocent (yet poorly placed, poorly timed) people suspected of things like witchcraft used to be tried before we had our current legal frameworks? They'd simply be killed. So justice was not being served as effectively as it is today (in these two poor examples).

Lets just assume that humanity is inherently all things. What are you going to do with those who don't conform with an arbritrary set of constraints? It seems like something straight out The Beach. The community will collapse.

Off to read the other pages...

[–]5yr_club_member 4 points5 points ago

Please remember remember to upvote the submitter. Even if you disagree with him, he is asking honest questions and sharing his opinion. Many of us probably started out with a similar mindset to him before came to believe in the idea of anarchy.

[–]TheWillMan 4 points5 points ago

Since you are fond of Chomsky let's use his ideas here for a second. When asked what Anarchism is, at its core, Chomsky gives a simple explanation - that is, Anarchism is the belief that all authority must be justified and if it isn't justified than that authority should be dismantled. A parent stopping their child from running into the middle of a busy street is an example Chomsky used as an authority that is just.

Here is a very basic tenant that brings all schools of our thought together and something that just about any average joe off the street would subscribe to.

There are highly theoretical strains of anarchist thought that bring up some conclusions that many people may have difficulty excepting, but all the great theorists started with this same question that Chomsky proposed.

What happens is when people are open to questioning the legitimacy of authority, most come to the conclusion that they would rather live with a lower quality of life without any coercion than live a higher quality of life but never be free.

So when people make the objection that things might fall apart (there is no guarantee here of course and many stateless societies have flourished in human history) that is irrelevant to me. Society is much more highly structured in "command capitalist" asian economies like China - but I couldn't imagine using that as a justification for the coercion of their population. Same goes with any society (China just works well as an example).

TL;Dr - You say it wouldn't work, I say, so what? Here is a very basic tenant that brings all schools of our thought together and something that just about any average joe off the street would subscribe to.

There are highly theoretical strains of anarchist thought that bring up some conclusions that many people may have difficulty exepting, but all the great theorists started with this same question that Chomsky proposed.

What happens is when people are open to questioning the legitamacy of authority, most come to the conclusion that they would rather live with a lower quality of life without any coersion than live a higher quality of life but never be free.

So when people make the objection that things might fall apart (there is no guaruntee here of course and many stateless societies have flourished in human history) that is irrelevant to me. Society is much more highly structred in "command capitalist" asian economies like China - but I couldn't imagine using that as a justification for coersion of their population. Same goes with any society (China just works well as an example).

TL;Dr - You say it wouldn't work, I say, so what?

[–]shoseki[S] 1 point2 points ago

Since you are fond of Chomsky let's use his ideas here for a second. When asked what Anarchism is, at its core, Chomsky gives a simple explanation - that is, Anarchism is the belief that all authority must be justified and if it isn't justified than that authority should be dismantled. A parent stopping their child from running into the middle of a busy street is an example Chomsky used as an authority that is just.

Here is a very basic tenant that brings all schools of our thought together and something that just about any average joe off the street would subscribe to.

This is a very interesting concept. Authority may come from many different sources, and it is difficult to qualify whether authority is qualified or not.

Power, by definition, lends authority. My contention so far has been that while that authority may not be justified, it still exists. Hijackers of a plane, for example, have may have their own justification for taking authority over the passengers, but as far as the passengers are concerned there is no justification for them taking authority- the authority is unjustified. My contention is - so what? The fact is, that the hijackers have the authority whether it is justified or not.

I think this is quite a good analogy for what I understand anarchy to be. Take control of the plane back from the hijackers. However, once the hijackers are overwhelmed, the control of the plane should be returned to the third party operating the plane (the cabin crew, the captain etc). As far as I understand, anarchism would like to retain control of the plane under the passengers, who could arbritrarily start fighting / panicking / any random shit. Perhaps one of the passengers suddenly decides he would like to fly the plane? Or perhaps the captain decides he can't be bothered, he wants to take a break? With no system, there are no penalties for the pilot to simply stop flying the plane, or use his authority to start "taxing" his passengers "empty you wallets please!". You rely on the systems already in place for every little thing and don't even realise it.

So when people make the objection that things might fall apart (there is no guarantee here of course and many stateless societies have flourished in human history) that is irrelevant to me. Society is much more highly structured in "command capitalist" asian economies like China - but I couldn't imagine using that as a justification for the coercion of their population. Same goes with any society (China just works well as an example).

So name me a single large society that is based on the principles of anarchy? The point is that there is no guarantee that things might fall apart but to assume that things will and take measures.

I'm not saying "it won't work" I'm trying to understand the principles, and they still seem to be flawed and based on a premise that humans could be "trained" to be civilised, yet without an arbritrary social structure, without the use of money (anticapitalist) yet have some way to trade value to motivate people to work towards a common goal.

[–]DrMandible 1 point2 points ago

The issue here seems to be the term "justified" authority. Authority can only be justified by rigorous, direct democracy by all affected parties.

I like your example of the plane hijacker. The affected parties would be the hijacker and the passengers. In an anarchist society, the hijacker would propose a hijacking, then everyone would vote on the proposal. If there was consensus, then the hijacking would go forward as legitimate authority. Otherwise, the hijacker's actions would be anti-anarchist.

[–]shoseki[S] 0 points1 point ago

I'd say then, that by definition, everyone is potentially anti-anarchist, as they can act in their own selfish ways to take advantage. In the case of the hijacking, the anarchists would then be sitting ducks, unable to do anything except doom their own entire community.

[–]DrMandible 1 point2 points ago*

Sure everyone is potentially anti-anarchist. Just as everyone is potentially violent, or anti-capitalist, or all manner of things. What I described isn't supposed to encapsulate the totality of anarchist philosophy. I was just explaining how anarchists define legitimate authority. The hijacking example was, of course, absurd by intent. But an anarchist society wouldn't oppose airport security.

[edit for further clarification] I also want to mention that a hijacker is anti-democratic and anti-social. Hijacking is a violent criminal act which any society would seek to prevent, and certainly not something unique to anarchism.

[–]TheWillMan 0 points1 point ago

Anarchy means a lot of things, so it's difficult to really differentiate all of its internal elements. But the anarchy I am talking about here doesn't mean chaos or the total absence of structure. It just means that people work and live according to voluntary association. In fact, most anarchist theory I've read allow for highly developed national/international societies.

To use your analogy, if everyone freely decided that they the best way to travel from a to b was for a pilot and flight crew to take them and that the crew was still capable of doing so after the hijacking was suppressed, then of course they would give authority back. I don't believe this is incongruous with anarchist theory.

I hope you don't feel like I'm dodging your criticisms here but you really should check out this interview Chomsky gave specifically on Anarchist thought. It should address most of your concerns from a much more informed perspective than I could provide.

[–]so_random 6 points7 points ago

You can say the exact same thing about Democracy. There's always some asshole or ruling class who manipulates the system, but we work towards containing those people and balancing the power so that Democracy expresses itself. We often/usually fail in that.

True Anarchism is an ideal goal, just like Democracy is an ideal goal. We fall short of it, but its what we work towards and what we compare ourselves to.

Its true that people at this stage in civilization are not ready to conduct society in widespread Anarchism. Small scale Anarchism can work, and it forms the foundation towards the larger scale. That's what we work on at this stage.

In the same respect people are not ready to work together in a Communistic system, they are still too greedy, selfish, short-sighted and egotistical. (Communism is not a centralized state like the USSR, its a system that builds from small scale organization outwards)

[–]shoseki[S] 0 points1 point ago

You could say that all the people involved are attempting to manipulate the system, and that some are simply more effective than others. "Containing" is a matter of being succesful, but there are systems that we can put in place to make it more balanced. Either way, it all comes out in the wash.

Case in point - you can't be a racist/snobby bastard if half your electorate are of a different ethnicity or social or economic demographic.

So what can we do, and how does anarchism help with this? Transparency helps a great deal - I'd rather know that someone was a BNP member rather than he get into a position of power and then his values start affecting his judgement. So we could say that an unbiased media environment would greatly aid in this.

But all of this avoids the topic, which is - what would this be like without a state? At least in a state you already have a framework to start enforcing freedom of the press (with whistleblowers helping to enforce that). In an anarchic society, what enforces freedom of the press, for example? Anarchism, as I understand, is simply the lack of a social framework, is this correct?

[–]so_random 0 points1 point ago

You could say that all the people involved are attempting to manipulate the system, and that some are simply more effective than others.

I don't think that's fair, many people quite honestly want Democracy to work and do not seek to distort the results. In the current US situation its quite distorted, but in other countries we do have pretty straight forward elections.

"Containing" is a matter of being succesful,

I meant that those of us that want the system to work as advertised seek to contain those who seek to distort or manipulate the system.

But all of this avoids the topic, which is - what would this be like without a state?

IMO in the current US situation it would vary depending on the region. Some localities would make it work, some would fall prey to financially powerful forces that would take advantage of the lack of state protection. This is one of the reasons why IMO full Anarchism has to wait until the current period of Capitalism has burnt itself out and been transformed to a new economic system.

In the meantime we can work on laying the plans for the future and experimenting in small scale Anarchism and actually enjoying our lives in some of those experiments.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points ago*

To me, it seems that the problem is power. Someone always has power, people always struggle to have power, and whenever there is a black hole with a lack of a power hierarchy, people compete with each other to take control of it.

That's because society is arranged in that manner. Businesses aren't arranged for cooperation, they are arranged to make profit.

In some ways, it seems to be the general sociopathic nature of humanity. We compete with each other for every little thing, and even when we cooperate (such as in Open Source software), an example of where society benefits from a lack of hierarchy, we are essentially using it as a platform (to show ourselves off as developers, ego, feeling of doing something positive etc).

We don't live in a society where we fight eachother over the biggest piece of meat at the super market. Your next critizism is like this.........I guess critizism of cooperation. I think you are refering to the military when you talk about ego. That's not every organization. Also, software developers don't do what they do to be famous. You said we work together when we get a positive feeling. THAT'S THE ONLY REASON ANYONE DOES ANYTHING!!! If you don't think that will work, than the human race is screwed and so is all life.

In my (unqualified, raw) opinion, as soon as there was no state and no police, we would return to a "tribalistic" state. Power would be wielded by whoever controlled various resources, but would be exercised by force (read : whoever had the biggest guns / biggest followings of people), people would not suddenly "get along".

I guess this could happen if none of these people were anarchists. There were many successful revolutions in the past.

People can't get along without trashing the place on a Friday night when relaxing, I don't see how people would take collective responsibility.

You are comparing a teenaged party to an entire political-socio-economic system. That's simplistic and all I can say to that is that it doesn't always turn out that way. There's no "responsibility" because it's not coercive.

How are you going to manage the assholes of society when the "£$% hits the fan and everyone is competing simply to stay alive?

If everyone suddenly goes insane and treats his neighbor like a wolf, we are fucked. So are you. If man begins to fight man out of fear than the state and your job are gone. If no one will help eachother, than society will fall apart. Anarchism is always held at this super high standard because people think the state is the pinacle of our society. That's just false. Social order is emergent and if everyone in a social sphere prefers anarchy, than that is what it will become.

[–]HailJenkum 1 point2 points ago

A question for you. If there were anarchy tomorrow would you get the bigger gun and try to take control of as much as possible?

[–]shoseki[S] 0 points1 point ago

You don't even need anarchy for that question - people (at least in the states) already take a big gun to protect their family - its perfectly natural and normal.

Now I personally may not be interested in dominating others, but there is always an element that is. Always.

[–]wildernessexplorer 0 points1 point ago

I am not an expert on anarchism but i do want to comment on a couple of things you have said. The premise of my argument would be that instead of society teaching us to depend on it and the system, and for me that means i want to be self sustaining and have the ability to depend on meand my community and not someone far far away who knows nothing about who i am or what i want and just wants to manipulate those things. Also, the only reason people are able to be oppressed and lead by sociopaths is because our society teaches us to be led and not to think for ourselves. We are taught that if we go against the normalcy and comfort we will be shunned, punished, imprisoned and even not able to survive.

I am not going to convince you why anarchism works for you. That is something you must look into yourself. However, just know that everything you think and have always known is probably the product of what you were fed and given. I am just fighting to be able to create my own food.

[–]shoseki[S] 0 points1 point ago

The premise of my argument would be that instead of society teaching us to depend on it and the system, and for me that means i want to be self sustaining and have the ability to depend on meand my community and not someone far far away who knows nothing about who i am or what i want and just wants to manipulate those things.

That seems respectable - though I highly doubt that the needs of your community are going to be entirely different from the needs of other community - unless you have some forms of exclusionary policy. Most communities are normal graphs with people of every type, and sometimes in order to manage groups of larger and larger people, we need more complex organisational structures - you are right though that that doesn't mean that those structures couldn't become corrupted over time.

Also, the only reason people are able to be oppressed and lead by sociopaths is because our society teaches us to be led and not to think for ourselves. We are taught that if we go against the normalcy and comfort we will be shunned, punished, imprisoned and even not able to survive.

I am a technologist so I can't comment on other peoples' experiences, but when I was growing up, I was not normal, I was wasting my time with computers, but I myself believed in them and thats all that mattered to me. I may have been educated in various matters, but I'm not sure what you mean by "taught to be led and not think for ourselves". We have a very active subreddit on skepticism, and most skeptics are active critical thinkers - authority is absolutely to be questioned. On the other hand, it is very difficult to have a qualified opinion on each and everything that exists, and so our entire society is somewhat beholden to the unqualified "authority", usually in the form of companies selling us random stuff. We trust that this stuff won't kill us because a large number of individuals systems are in place competing with each other, with a net result of food being safe to eat etc. Scientists constantly try to put each other down with their research, but the practicalities of the Scientiffic method and independant verification despite a lack of cooperation filters out what is real and what is complete rubbish by people who don't know what they are talking about.

Anarchism shouldn't work "for me". It is either of sound political and philosophical nature or it isn't. I am greatly enjoying this discussion though :)

[–]The Anarchist FighterLouisLingg 1 point2 points ago*

A couple things; First your question of power, the short answer to this is that power is not some "other" or entity. It is utterly subjective and only exists when people recognize it as legitimate. Just like money, it requires public confidence in order to have any influence on individuals. Therefore, "power" does not exist despite individuals, it exists because individuals subject themselves to it. And if this holds, then it follows that power can be denied as a legitimate action. It can be rendered impotent, and anarchists believe this is the true human condition.

Which leads into your question of sociopathic tendencies. Mental health and abberation is a part of being human, no one denies that. My view is that this "tendency" is often exaggerated by those who legitimize their power with fear. Those at the top of social hierarchy use their influence on the rest of us to create fear, social "otherness" , and division among individuals. Your example of Open Source Software is interesting (I am not well versed in this at all), it sounds like a great example of how decentralized organization can work. No one denies the realities of the ego, but the concept of "spontaneous order", from a book called Anarchy In Action by Colin Ward, comes to mind. It states basically that in the absence of any real space for individuals to develop influencial power over all others (such as in a given ecosystem), individuals find that it actually works in their own self-interest to cooperate in some capacity. Both the individual ego and the common good flourish when there is no a hierarchy directing their actions. This is not to say that conflict disappears, but power does.

Your final question has already been somewhat dealt with in my previous points. But the question of resources is an interesting one. It can be dealt with by the same basic principles of legitimization of power. You are actually talking about the concept of scarcity, which is complex and in my opinion is best understood through Marx's analysis of commodities, exchange value, and prices. To truncate though, resources (or commodities) are subject to the mechanics of capitalism in our society. That means that allocation of commodities is determined by our current concepts of property, ownership, and profit. These factors are the true cause of scarcity, not the existence (or lack) of resources themselves. In other words, economic markets exist despite capitalism. There will always be a demand and subsequent supply, anarchists believe that these can and will be satisfied through mutual cooperation and aid, etc. Capitalism is one form of satisfying markets, and we believe it has proven itself to be a faulty and inefficient format.

Anarchism starts with questioning our current systems and methods to the full extent. Only then can we see new and better ways of coexisting. Humanity exists despite Capitalism and hierarchy, we as individuals owe them nothing.

[–]shoseki[S] 2 points3 points ago

A couple things; First your question of power, the short answer to this is that power is not some "other" or entity. It is utterly subjective and only exists when people recognize it as legitimate.

I wouldn't say necessary that power needs to be recognised to be legitimate. Perhaps we are talking at cross purposes here, but if I have something you need, and I refuse to give it to you and you have power (force or otherwise), you can use that power to take what you need without my recognising your power. I can be entirely in denial of your power, yet unable to resist precisely because I don't have power. This is the nature of power.

If I make medicine and you need it, and you grow turnips that barely anyone likes or appreciates, there is very little that you are going to be able to do actively force me to give you medicine - you will be entirely dependant on my charity which is a whimsical as anything else - I will essentially have power over you, whether you choose to recognise it or not. I could simply destroy the medicine, or produce only enough medicine for my own family / friends, introducing the concept of loyalty, something that I believe is anaethema to the concept of collective responsibility. Loyalty is entirely arbritrary and subjective, whereas general rules / laws / concepts should not distinguish between people.

In short, if I was the only person who could create medicine or create any kind of value, what motivation is there to do that? And just because I can, doesn't mean I should. What if my interests are not medicine, but sports?

Which leads into your question of sociopathic tendencies. Mental health and abberation is a part of being human, no one denies that. My view is that this "tendency" is A; often exaggerated by those who legitimize their power with fear. Those at the top of social hierarchy use their influence on the rest of us to create fear, social "otherness" , and division among individuals.

Sociopaths do not have to actively go around killing people in order to be sociopaths - all they need is a lack of empathy. Many people in positions of power are able to able to attain power by manipulating the wants and needs of those around them without any feelings of remorse or regret - I don't feel regret charging a lot of money out of companies for my services, who don't feel regret for raising prices (though trying to stay markettable). Most human endeavour is inherantly sociopathic, with rare exceptions where communities band together to overcome a "greater" goal, (which is usually only short term, and people burn out).

No one denies the realities of the ego, but the concept of "spontaneous order", from a book called Anarchy In Action by Colin Ward, comes to mind. It states basically that in the absence of any real space for individuals to develop influencial power over all others (such as in a given ecosystem), individuals find that it actually works in their own self-interest to cooperate in some capacity. Both the individual ego and the common good flourish when there is no a hierarchy directing their actions. This is not to say that conflict disappears, but power does.

If you want to see examples of tribalism / anarchism (which in my mind are still the same thing), its very easy to find examples - in lawlessness. By definition, any individuals who wish to partake in unlawful behaviour must avoid those systems that enforce law, and thus have total freedom - you could argue that the various nefarious parts of our society (such as in the drug trade) are acting as anarchic groups. But what you see is tribal behaviour - power and loyalty, selfishness, not collective responsibility. Drug gangs compete with each other and the police, they don't cooperate, even if it is in their self interest. The old saying is "there is no loyalty amongst thieves".

There is nothing wrong with questioning our current systems and methods to the fullest extent - after all, we made this society over years and years, and it still a damn site better than we used to have (police brutality? still better than absolute theocratic dictatorships with arbritrary punishments. I certainly don't think we are up there with Syria). But if we are going to regress, I don't see what the alternative is, if power is still the issue.

[–]Mutualizm 2 points3 points ago

I'm going to bed soon, so I can't really stick around to debate, but the argument against anarchism generally starts with the assumption that the state "works" and anarchy would be completely chaotic.

Instead of going for the second part, which a lot of other people will no doubt do, I want to address the first. The state only works if you have a very loose definition of "work" that reduces your assertion to "well... the state hasn't killed us all off. Yet."

Even Hobbes admitted that the "natural" state of humanity is one without a centralized government. It's up to the state to justify its existence, and after Kropotkin's Mutual Aid: A Factor in Evolution, which basically shattered Hobbes' main points about humanity just killing itself off, no one seems to have made a good case for it.

In case you still insist that the social contract is valid, and refuse to acknowledge the complaint that the people who are alive today had no part in drafting that contract, a state has an end of the bargain to keep in any social contract, and any breaking of a contract renders the whole thing null.

If you do decide to take the discussion that direction, I'll need you to name one government that has never failed to uphold its end of the deal. One government that has never wronged innocent people in any way.

[–]shoseki[S] 1 point2 points ago

I'm going to bed soon, so I can't really stick around to debate, but the argument against anarchism generally starts with the assumption that the state "works" and anarchy would be completely chaotic.

I don't know that the state "works", I know that it exists and that it has benefits and disadvantages. One of the benefits I know that I enjoy is that when someone builds a municipal building to deliver water to my house, nobody breaks into the building to steal all the copper without consequence, whereas this has (apparently) happened time and again with those community projects in some of the most impoverished parts of africa when an external team goes to set up (succesfully) a project.

Instead of going for the second part, which a lot of other people will no doubt do, I want to address the first. The state only works if you have a very loose definition of "work" that reduces your assertion to "well... the state hasn't killed us all off. Yet."

North Korea (I wonder if they will become the new Godwinning?) are the absolute example of a dictatorship, and they haven't kill their citizens off - yet. A dictatorship without people is powerless - dictators like having people under them doing their bidding -its the power that they crave above all. People are starving and living a miserable existence. How would anarchism be different? Well, there wouldn't be a centralised army, dictator etc. If they vanished, there would immediately be a power gap and those who wanted it would attempt to fill it - the country might break into smaller villages etc that became self sustained until they could attempt to band together to form some sort of coallition government to get things organised and back on track. But it wouldn't be smooth, and it would be party to exact the same issues that all societies face as they compete for control.

Even Hobbes admitted that the "natural" state of humanity is one without a centralized government. It's up to the state to justify its existence, and after Kropotkin's Mutual Aid: A Factor in Evolution, which basically shattered Hobbes' main points about humanity just killing itself off, no one seems to have made a good case for it.

I don't know Hobbes and I don't know his arguments, but I can certainly think of examples in human societies where there isn't a "state" - very small communities dotted around, living in exile from the outside world. However, a lot of these socities are "protected", and are extremely vulnerable to being entirely wiped out at a moments' notice - assuming they don't wipe each other out whilst competing for finite resources. Tribes just don't get on with their neighbours, they only get on internally.

In case you still insist that the social contract is valid, and refuse to acknowledge the complaint that the people who are alive today had no part in drafting that contract, a state has an end of the bargain to keep in any social contract, and any breaking of a contract renders the whole thing null.

I'm going to assume that the contract you are referring to is common law. You are right, that people today did not necessarily have any part in drafting. We could start a new one. Where to begin? Or perhaps we don't need laws or people to enforce those laws? What if I decide to take your wife, and that it was legal?

Laws are malleable and defined by us, but laws are irrelevant without enforcement and testing by trial. Laws back in the day were really terrible, its only through testing over, and over, and over for hundres of years that we have a semi-reasonable social contract. What are you going to replace this with?

If you do decide to take the discussion that direction, I'll need you to name one government that has never failed to uphold its end of the deal.

Actually, I can help you with your argument, and define that every government has failed, and that it is practically impossible to uphold its end of the deal (though I may be misunderstanding what you mean by deal). If you feel let down by governments, then you may have had unreasonable expectations.

One government that has never wronged innocent people in any way.

Once again, I will support you in this by saying that every government has wronged its people, its innocents. However, there are varying amounts of abuse - I don't think you'd argue that most modern democracies abuse its' citizens more than North Korea.

On the other hand, I believe the implied argument is that an anarchic "no state" would not have to face these issues - the creation of a social contract (from scratch I am assuming), the maintenance of social order despite individuals or groups who do not agree with or want to take your land, property, work etc. You are creating something from scratch once again, but you have no way of binding people together - just as in Lost, half the people will return to the beach, half the group will hide in caves - and then the two groups have no need to cooperate, they can use tribalistic "insider outsider" mentality to justify killing and raiding the other group for resources etc.

50 people land on a desert island, there are no authorities, it is an anarchic state. What will happen? Its entirely random. People might all work together. But statistically there will be one dick who will manipulate/fight his way to the top, have as many wives as he wants control the resources etc. As Tony Montana said

"In this country, you gotta make the money first. Then when you get the money, you get the power. Then when you get the power, then you get the women."

In an anarchic state, there might not be any power, but there will still be needs/desires of people, and the need to trade what you can produce for what you need. Money is just a proxy for value created for society. Nothing will change.

[–]The Anarchist FighterLouisLingg 2 points3 points ago

I think you are using a vague definition of power, it sounds like you are describing coercion. By your argument, power is nothing more than the ability to harm others for your benefit? Humans will obviously always have this capability and likely will continue to utilize it, and by that definition power is ubiquitous. But to play to your example, what if you were living in a community that was one of many, and not in isolation? What if this community or communities had more than one person with access to the medicine you need? This is true now, and unless we are talking about a post-apocalyptic world (which I am not), this would remain true in a future society. Now, what if the community cooperated to the point were if I deny you the medicine for some abstract purpose of exerting "power" (I'm not sure exactly how this would serve me, other than this simple "sociopath" explanation), I lose social merit and am marginalized by the community? I have thus lost my "power" (really physical coercion) in relation to you. You then go to the person who has access to medicine and the social credibility necessary to exist in the community. In other words, my ability to exert power over you has been nullified, and now the power has been transformed into something more like cooperation, because it's the community's cooperation that has enabled you to get what you need. This is the nature of power in my eyes, it can be marginalized to the point of impotence by way of simple cooperation. And this is why I pointed out spontaneous order, it's to the individual's benefit to work with their community. It harms the individual to try and control others through coercion. Thus power is rendered useless.

Your ideas on tribalism are not making much sense to me. Are you talking about tribal behavior in our current time? Or do you mean indigenous tribal communities of the past? I do not understand how the drug trade, which is a direct by-product of market capitalism, represents "anarchic groups". Do you mean that because they act outside of law they are anarchic? If so we are getting quite abstract and combining a lot of disparate aspects of social theory. Drug gangs don't cooperate because there is no incentive to do so in a profit driven market, without profit (and without Capitalism) the value of the entire system dissolves and we are left with my above stated ideas on mutual aid. Furthermore, theft only exists because of scarcity, which only exists because of property, which only exists because of profit.

Finally, police brutality and dictatorship are partners in crime. Neither is "better" than the other, both are violent coercion used to instill fear and subjugate the individual. Cooperation and mutually beneficial behavior among communities does not sound like regression to me, sounds quite progressive actually. Good discussion though, I like how engaged in the subject you seem to be.

[–]shoseki[S] 0 points1 point ago

I think you are using a vague definition of power, it sounds like you are describing coercion.

Power is control. That power is in of itself neither good nor bad, in the same way an atom bomb is neither good or bad. In the hands of a benevolent dictator that cares about its' subjects, people feel safe and protected and can advance at their own pace. In the hands of a brutal company director, people can lead stressed lives worrying if they will be fired next. Power is complex, but it is always there. Power lends authority, it lends comfort, it lends stability. It can also be a curse - people can be jealous of your power and attempt to undermine you, attempt to make themselves feel powerful.

Most people don't care or need to worry about power - its irrelevant, they compete in an open marketplace. But if the state didn't have rules, for example, one company could hire thugs to go around and bully its' competitors from trading and get the advantage. This happens in places where there aren't rules - gang wars over drugs is a good example. Turf is a finite resource, people are cheap, its a sad cycle. That is what I mean by power.

But to play to your example, what if you were living in a community that was one of many, and not in isolation? What if this community or communities had more than one person with access to the medicine you need?

Now, what if the community cooperated to the point were if I deny you the medicine for some abstract purpose of exerting "power", I lose social merit and am marginalized by the community? I have thus lost my "power" (really physical coercion) in relation to you. You then go to the person who has access to medicine and the social credibility necessary to exist in the community. In other words, my ability to exert power over you has been nullified, and now the power has been transformed into something more like cooperation, because it's the community's cooperation that has enabled you to get what you need. This is the nature of power in my eyes, it can be marginalized to the point of impotence by way of simple cooperation. And this is why I pointed out spontaneous order, it's to the individual's benefit to work with their community. It harms the individual to try and control others through coercion. Thus power is rendered useless.

Interesting. First of all, there is no guarantee whatsoever, that even if you managed (somehow without a social framework) to get a community to coexist without breaking apart, that you would necessarily get cooperation with another community. This is the definition of tribalism - "us" versus "them". Lets assume though, for a moment, that the other community is also cooperating, a "mutual exchange".

Power is afforded by many things, and it affects many things. It may be that many people have the medicine, in which case I have v little power. It is not a scarce resource, so it becomes a null point. But this has simply avoided the argument. The reason that I picked medicine is that frequently logitistics and real scarcity really do affect lives, which gives power. People don't need "social credibility" to live in a society - I'm sure there are some right horrible jerks who in live in the same city as me. So what do you do, drive them out? You are simply creating a new community that is no longer in tune with your own, your own community will become weaker as a result.

(I'm not sure exactly how this would serve me, other than this simple "sociopath" explanation)

Society has needs and desires. Theres 5 jobs to do, 2 of them are hard, 2 of them are dangerous and hard, and one of them is easy. Everyone will want to do the easy one, no-one will want to do the hard one. Without capitalism (which I've noticed from a few comments now, anarchists seem to dislike, I will have to read up more about that), there is absolutely no incentive for anyone to do the nasty, dangerous jobs. Society will suffer as a result.

Or perhaps some people will man up (excuse the implied mysogyny) and go hunt tigers for people to have food to eat. When they get back to the community, they will have a special table up at the head of the group for doing the dangerous/difficult job - and next time there is a debate, if everybody agrees but the hunters disagree, everyone will be forced to go along with what the hunters say - because they have the power, which gives them the influence etc etc.

I feel like I am writing obvious things and that there is something fundamental that I am missing. This essential human nature has been going on since the dawn of time, I'm not sure what the alternative is...

Furthermore, theft only exists because of scarcity, which only exists because of property, which only exists because of profit.

99.9999% of anything is scarce. My time is scarce, because I should be using it to work to pay and eat. My emotional energy is scarce, if I do something really horrific every day as my job such as social work in extremely deprived areas, I will not be able to go home and deal with family problems well. Physical things are scarce, because if you have something, I cannot have that same thing without denying you it - even if we share it, very rarely can we use it properly together, forget things like land, food, energy etc. These things are consumed and gone forever until someone puts their scarce time and energy into recreating that original item. This is economics, not politics, though obviously the politics of a situation develops the environment in which the economics exists.

Finally, police brutality and dictatorship are partners in crime. Neither is "better" than the other, both are violent coercion used to instill fear and subjugate the individual. Cooperation and mutually beneficial behavior among communities does not sound like regression to me, sounds quite progressive actually. Good discussion though, I like how engaged in the subject you seem to be.

They may be partners in crime but they are certainly not the same, though dictators might use a unified group to enforce their policies (which might be called "police" but is just a personal army) the police are there for our benefit. The police don't define the laws, they are like dumb robots that are told what is "right" and what is "wrong" and to clean up the "wrong". They are like white blood cells. However, sometimes the human body gets messed up and white blood cells starts attacking normal healthy cells. We don't say "get rid of the concept of white blood cells", we say "we need to correct the system". When I see police brutality in small numbers, I think "ignorant idiot abusing his power, he should be stripped of his badge and made an example of". Police need the cooperation of the communities they are attempting to support, and if they have lost their suport and the community rejects them, then all the community has done has remove their police force - they still have the crime, just like a body could still have an infection. In this case, the police need reform - and systems have to be put in place to ensure that abuses of power cannot happen, and to be honest transparency seems to be the greatest weapon, but then you get into the privacy/transparency debate... and what protection the police need in order to be safe etc...

[–]The Anarchist FighterLouisLingg 1 point2 points ago*

Thanks again for being so engaged! A lot of interesting points. I must say that I think some analysis of capitalism would do alot for your understanding of anarchist theory. You cant go wrong with reading Proudhon's revolutionary ideas on the nature of property. Also, anything you can do to learn about Marx will, I think, enlighten you greatly (try David Harvey, he's helped me more than anything). For example, your point about the scarcity of your time, emotional energy etc., while interesting, is totally abstracting from a discussion of market economics. And it seems to me that alot of your concerns fall into the arena of markets and exchange. As far as defining power, I think we may have to agree to disagree until we can define the terms we are using and narrow the discussion down a bit. Physical power, social power, economic power? And finally, a working theory of anarchism is absolutely a look forward, trying to make it fit with our current societal situations in their myriad forms is not going to serve us well. An understanding of Capitalism and the hierarchy it imposes is essential in moving forward on this discussion, IMO. I dont mean to be evasive or anything, but we need to have our feet on relatively similar ground in order to learn the most we can from eachother.

[–]shoseki[S] -1 points0 points ago

I am assuming you are referring to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_is_theft! which seems like utter gibberish... I didn't realise that in order to even consider the lack of a state, we have to start inverting even our basic fundamental ideas about things like property - this is starting to sound less and less plausible.

I am only able to write and have this conversation with you because I own a laptop which I bought with my own money - if the concept of property were challenged so that this stability is not even maintained, then there isn't any state outside of the human body whatsoever. You could define property "owned by a person for a fixed period of time (lifespan of the owner)" but that is already, by definition, in place. Animals have the concept of property in so far as competing for resources to consume and safe / comfortable places to sleep/places to rear young, but we have a far more complex relationship as our labour is far more complex - but if I have no ownership over the fruits of my own labour, what is the point of me labouring?

And why does anarchy now start to sound more and more like communism?

[–]thenoorys 3 points4 points ago

Congratulations. You've come to the first reactionary conclusion about Proudhons distinction between owned property and possession (property defined by use).

Communism is anarchistic by the way.

I see you've never really given any left economic ideologies much of a read.

[–]DiggerDingDong 0 points1 point ago*

How long has the human race been around? Around 195,000 years. Little over 1000 years of being authoritarian dicks to each other should not define humans as power hungry. The truth is that we react to the environment we live in. If we lived in an environment where you can benefit from being in control of everyone through authoritarian means, some will. Same goes if we lived in an environment where we could benefit from sharing with each other.

I belive anarchy is the most natural state from humans. Just look at all the indigenous tribes.

[–]DiggerDingDong 0 points1 point ago

Another interesting piece of info:

During the colonization of North America by the Europeans, there would be war between them and the indigenous peoples. When one of them attacked another’s village/settlement/town they would usually indoctrinate the children into their way of life. The indigenous peoples taken into European life would often try to escape and find there indigenous tribes again. Europeans taken into indigenous tribes would, for the most part, want to stay, and live with them!

[–]shoseki[S] 0 points1 point ago

It is quite possible - indigenous people lived in small, tightly knit communities that they would wish to return to if possible. However, the Europeans didn't have that, and it is quite possible that having been forcefully introduced to that culture, found it far more natural and became part of that.

But it still doesn't solve, rather it avoids, the issues that we have as large scale communities, which is - how do we avoid all out power struggles / tribal warfare? We don't have tribal warfare in modern countries (except perhaps mexico and some innercities where law and order has broken down). Is that what will happen in an anarchic society?

[–]DiggerDingDong 1 point2 points ago

"We don't have tribal warfare in modern countries"

....... uhhh, war? World wars, civil wars, rebellions... If anything this is the most chaotic and dangerous state humans have ever been in! Not 30 years ago we were on the brink of nuclear war!

[–]shoseki[S] 0 points1 point ago

Ah, my apologies, I meant within the state, not between states. Between states, we are essentially still tribal, but that is why countries attempt things like NATO etc to breach the gaps...

[–]sgguitar88 0 points1 point ago

We don't have tribal warfare, just poverty-driven gang violence and an ever growing prison population. Class war, my friend.

[–]shoseki[S] 0 points1 point ago

I would define that as tribal warfare - gangs are essentially clusters of communities looking out for themselves and their community members competing for limited resources (thus the poverty). I wouldn't necessarily contend on the class war, the prison population is ever growing. But the population is growing, and assuming that 1% or 5% or whatever are always going to want to trash everything... whats truly alarming is that the actual % relative to population is increasing - and the demographic does not match the actual demographical statistics of society at large.

[–]sgguitar88 0 points1 point ago*

I totally agree, I should have said "ever growing incarceration rate." Then you have for-profit prisons, the drug war, and some states allowing forced unpaid prison labor which essentially means slavery hasn't yet ended in parts of the country. All of these issues I would count as blows against the legitimacy of the state.

Another point: Since you admit that we do have forms of tribal warfare in the U.S. - a modern country where law and order have not broken down - I would count this against the idea that "law and order" solves the problem. In many ways I'd say the paramilitary nature of modern police squads and capitalism itself perpetuate gangs and other forms of conflict. I'm not even completely against the idea of a public security force, just one that is directly accountable rather than under the power of an elected representative. I live in Seattle and the SPD has become so notorious in the last few years that the DOJ is forcing them to create citizen panels of review.

[–]shoseki[S] 0 points1 point ago

Well, concerning the drug law, I would legalise it (even though I don't even partake or benefit). The problem is that prohibition creates a market that only certain types of people can get involved in - and so rather than destroy the market, all that the law does is drive it underground.

Law and order do not solve problems, they are simply an attempt at systems to deal with the problems - a band aid, so to speak. Education, a strong economy (reducing scarcity) are in my opinion the main weapons against it.

If power is abused, then absolutely, it has to be reined back - but as I said, its our system. Even if we removed it entirely, the problems would still be there.

[–]sgguitar88 0 points1 point ago

I think reducing scarcity is important but there are a lot of societal problems that are directly correlated with high levels of wealth inequality. Capitalist systems are generally good at the former but not the latter. There is also the much murkier problem of consumer culture and the conflation of money with success as a human being. Being poor doesn't just take a physical toll, it's demoralizing.

[–]DiggerDingDong 0 points1 point ago

Although I think it would rarely happen, I would rather have tribal warfare then war between states.

[–]shoseki[S] 0 points1 point ago

I would argue that war between states is tribal warfare, but on a massive collective scale.

[–]DiggerDingDong 0 points1 point ago

I agree, but not collective. War is not raged by the interests of the people, but the state.

[–]shoseki[S] 0 points1 point ago

This is the strange dichotomy I am sensing. I get the feeling that most anarchists either feel betrayed by the state or entirely separated from the state (that votes don't matter etc, an entirely different discussion), but the state is

1) a massive legal framework (evolved over time, imperfect, tried and tested on a case by case basis, laws created by people well versed in what already exists and a great deal of social and ethical theory)

2) a power framework (usually backed by the armed forces, a centralised hierarchy with people voted using democracy)

3) the entire infrastructure of the rest of society that produces, consumes and moves around resources to fuel the goals of society as executed by the state power framework.

Wars are raged physically by the power framework, but the benefits of the war should benefit the state, including the people of the state. You are actually part of the state. If an enemy followed the doctrine of Total War, they could quite literally bomb you personally because they went to war with the state, including you. There isn't a dichotomy as far as I can see between yourself and the state.

[–]DiggerDingDong 0 points1 point ago

1) Is it ethical to think you have the authority to judge how people should live their lives, to exploit nature, land, and people? To quote the song Capital Punishment by Aus Rotten "If you support capital punishment you support absolute political control at its sickest extreme." I would say every government supports this.

2) Voted using democracy.... sigh... The only type of democracy that works even remotely well is direct democracy. Every country is under a representative democracy which DOES NOT represent the views of the people, ever. Anyone corrupt enough to get into politics is not fit to be an authority over anyone.

3) "fuel the goals of society".... Is our goal to diminish the Earths resources, destroy nature, and lead ourselves to violent destruction?

Look at history. Look at every ancient civilization. The Aztecs, Rome, Ancient Greece, etc... All civilization falls eventually, ours is no different. To think ours will last forever would be quite closed minded, especially since we have the tools to wipe ourselves out faster than any other civilization in history!

[–]DiggerDingDong 0 points1 point ago

The entire idea of countries just promotes nationalism. It almost seems like a game. We all have different "teams" with different "play styles". It's all quite childish.

[–]shoseki[S] 0 points1 point ago

Its a fair comment, however it is simply the extension of what we had before - a bridging of villages to cities to states. We still have issues of a sort of "local nationalism" in the UK with towns and cities trashing each other because of football matches etc - it is exactly the same forces.

[–]shoseki[S] 0 points1 point ago

1) Is it ethical to think you have the authority to judge how people should live their lives, to exploit nature, land, and people? To quote the song Capital Punishment by Aus Rotten "If you support capital punishment you support absolute political control at its sickest extreme." I would say every government supports this.

Absolutely not - but then ethics are not required to think you have the authority to judge or just to judge how people should live their lives and exploit nature, land people etc. Ethics aren't even considered by most people. But that is why we have ethics - to build a philosophy under which we can discuss the varying competing philosophies that drive human decision making and be able to analyse them. People are going to use their power to try to attain whatever they want or need, and in a respectful and balanced society, we might be able to section it out - but just like in The Beach, it is extremely fragile, and there will always be elements (unless we prevent births / tightly tightly control how people think or feel about things, but that sounds more like a dictatorship) that will go against the status quo and will want to destroy / wreck everything, or simply do things differently from you. How will we deal with this without a social and legal framework?

A start might be that the state could start to negate the damage to common resources might be to be able to take measurements of the state of (say) the environment and tax heavily the difference left over when the the resource is remeasured after use. So, businesses that replant trees and maintain a healthy relationship with their environment, and not exploit it / damage it, don't suffer any costs. This obviously leads to sustainability, and is the original definition of farming. If humans consume it, humans should produce it, simple as that. But we have finite resources and may not be able to farm things, so then we need extra rules.

2) Voted using democracy.... sigh... The only type of democracy that works even remotely well is direct democracy. Every country is under a representative democracy which DOES NOT represent the views of the people, ever. Anyone corrupt enough to get into politics is not fit to be an authority over anyone.

I am not aware of the different types of democracy, but I don't really see what the other options are - proportional representation would at least get closer to who people truly want to vote in, but that may not solve the issues of corruption.

Anyone corrupt enough to get into politics is not fit to be an authority over anyone.

As I have mentioned, there is some fairly sociopathic behaviour amongst people, but there are also examples of altruism. You could say that Oliver Cromwell was a benevolent dictator in handing over the power his coup gave him to a parliament. It does happen.

Its complex, but its about peoples' motives. You could say the same corruption applies to everything else (why hire this person? They only want to take over the company) etc etc

3) "fuel the goals of society".... Is our goal to diminish the Earths resources, destroy nature, and lead ourselves to violent destruction?

Look at history. Look at every ancient civilization. The Aztecs, Rome, Ancient Greece, etc... All civilization falls eventually, ours is no different. To think ours will last forever would be quite closed minded, especially since we have the tools to wipe ourselves out faster than any other civilization in history!

I guess I would argue that there is a difference between "societies / states" and empires. The Aztecs were destroyed by tribalism, foreign conquerors. Rome / Ancient Greece essentially imploded, though I don't know the details. Empires I absolutely don't agree with, even though theoretically I am a citizen of one of the previously largest empires in history (am a brit). But those times are not something I would look back on with pride necessarily. Parts of empire building back then was more like branding. Hey, I have a flag, want to join us? We got all this advanced shit we can teach you (medicine, science, agriculture, travel) and you give us free stuff and taxes. Some parts were downright nasty (slavery, economic pillage, amongst other things) and some of it was positive (Western medicine, for example increased Indias' population by 2.5 times, but then they suffered starvation due to crop failures). Its really not black and white. Some countries, to this day, still celebrate being associated with "Britain" (though they really shouldn't).

Truth be told, nature isn't going to be fazed by us in the slightest - sure some particular species, even entire collections, might be wiped out - but it would be extremely arrogant of us to think we had the impact that something like the meteorite or subsequent ice age did. Life finds a way, as they say. It absolutely isn't our "right" to decide what lives and what dies, but other animals - absolutely don't give a shit about other species.

I will continue reading but I need sleep XD

[–]DiggerDingDong 0 points1 point ago*

Holy shit, wall 'o text...... You seem to think states are just part of the natural evolution of humans (correct me if I'm wrong, cuz I don't really want to nitpick everything you just wrote, I’d rather just generalize....). I disagree.

I am again going to reference the Indigenous peoples of North America quite a bit here. They had lived on North America 12500 years before colonization by the Europeans! Why didn't they evolve to states? I think that is where your argument falls flat. It doesn't have to be like this, and just because it is, doesn’t mean this is the natural state for human evolution.

When North America was only populated by Indigenous peoples the rivers would be flooded with salmon. They would actually play a game where they would drop a pebble into the river and see how long it would take to hit the bottom! That is how many salmon there were!!! Sometimes the skies would be darkened for days on end by birds!!!!! Like, HOLY SHIT, THAT’S A LOT OF BIRDS! Now look at nature, what have we done ;______; ...... We are the only species on Earth that requires the exploitation and destruction of land/nature to live. We are also the only species that needs to pay money to live somewhere (private property). We are told we are the smartest species on the Earth but I disagree. I can bet you almost every other animal lives happier lives then us.

" it would be extremely arrogant of us to think we had the impact that something like the meteorite or subsequent ice age did. Life finds a way, as they say. It absolutely isn't our "right" to decide what lives and what dies, but other animals - absolutely don't give a shit about other species."

Quite true, but other species don't fuck up the natural order as much as we do, or make life such misery. I'm not saying our current culture will destroy the planet, I'm saying it will destroy us..... And in the meantime, it sure makes life way less fun, less enjoyable, and less meaningful to live.

Please don't dismiss what I have written. Something is wrong with our culture and we need to take a stand! NOW! Anarchy will eventually rise from this civilization, you can't deny that.

I have truly had a great argument with you, and I'm so pleased it has been civil (most arguments on the internet’s get pretty disrespectful and lead to personal attacks)! I am more than willing to continue this tomorrow, but keep in mind I have school and may not be on until tomorrow night, or the next morning.

PEACE OUT

[–]DiggerDingDong 1 point2 points ago

I don't mean to be a dick, but people come here roughly every week saying "convince me anarchy would work".... It just gets old. If you are interested, and have an open mind I would sugest reading about the anarchist uprising in Spain from 1869 to 1936. You should also check out prominent anarchists like Emma Goldman, and Peter Kropotkin.

[–]shoseki[S] 0 points1 point ago

I don't understand where that 1000 years of being authoritarian dicks came from. Pre-bronze age societies are dicks to each other - people simply don't get on with their neighbours and compete for resources. Internally within a group, people vie for resources (the best women, the best food, the best shelter, pride) and when competing with other tribes, band together according to the hierarchy that already exists to try and protect their assets.

You are absolutely right - anarchy is the natural state of humans - its called tribalism. And it doesn't look pretty from my perspective, but then I am not one of the strong, I wouldn't be dominant...

[–]DiggerDingDong 0 points1 point ago

Yeah, 1000 was just kinda a arbitrary number.

"You are absolutely right - anarchy is the natural state of humans - its called tribalism. And it doesn't look pretty from my perspective, but then I am not one of the strong, I wouldn't be dominant..."

I think we can evolve from there state of tribalism. We don't have to go back to exactly how they were, because that will just lead to where we are now. I think we can improve on there anarcho communist principles (or, at least, looking back on them, I feel that is one of the closest modern day ideologies).

[–]shoseki[S] 0 points1 point ago

I believe that you, and possibly I, could if consciously and without constraints of resources attempt to rise above tribalism if left to our own devices.

But it slips really fast. Lord of the flies might be a good example, though to be honest it is simply an extension of our current schooling system anyway.

[–]DiggerDingDong 0 points1 point ago*

Yeah, I read lord of the flies. I think that just shows how our culture enforces the idea that there needs to be rules. I don't quite agree with Golding's view on human nature, but I kinda get it.

All of those kids were bread to believe they need authority to function and survive (or, at least I assume since they were privileged British school boys), and when there was no authority they didn't know what to do. I think that just shows the type of people our society breeds.

[–]shoseki[S] 0 points1 point ago

I am a little confused, are you saying that our culture enforces the idea that there needs to be rules and that that is a bad thing?

Its not that those kids were bred to believe they need authority, its that children (as less rational, less informed, more chaotic versions of adults) naturally form social groups with social leaders, popular kids, less popular kids etc all influencing and teasing and playing with each other. Its what kids do. However, it is entirely tribal - it is only the presence of the authority figure (the schoolmasters) that define what is right or wrong, and when the children are left to their own devices they carry out a terrible action.

Obviously this is not the parable of every classroom, it is a story to clearly describe a particular scenario that could happen. Most classrooms are going to be happy just running around and doing nothing. Some loners are going to go off and get themselves killed. But sometimes weird things happen, characters clash, kids do stupid things, and before you know it, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_Bulger

There is really a weird big mix of people, and they are capable of the best and the absolute worst. Our society may be clumsy as hell, but it has to deal with some nasty shit.

[–]DiggerDingDong 0 points1 point ago

"I am a little confused, are you saying that our culture enforces the idea that there needs to be rules and that that is a bad thing?"

Yes, and yes.

"Its not that those kids were bred to believe they need authority, its that children (as less rational, less informed, more chaotic versions of adults) naturally form social groups with social leaders, popular kids, less popular kids etc all influencing and teasing and playing with each other. Its what kids do. However, it is entirely tribal - it is only the presence of the authority figure (the schoolmasters) that define what is right or wrong, and when the children are left to their own devices they carry out a terrible action."

Ummm, I completely disagree... Children are bred to believe they need authority, all kids are! I'm almost positive you were, and so was I. We are told to vote and respect authority. May I ask, are religious or not?

Also, "its that children (as less rational, less informed, more chaotic versions of adults) naturally form social groups with social leaders, popular kids, less popular kids etc" You cannot define human nature with one characteristic. If there are different types of humans, it must stand to reason that there are different types of human nature. Humans are morally malleable, and will react to the environment they grow up in. We grow up in a capitalist/consumerist, authoritative environment; look at the kind of people it has bred. There is actually evidence that humans naturally reject authority, and strive to live autonomously. Why else would we be so individualistic?

[–]shoseki[S] 0 points1 point ago*

Yes, and yes.

Thats not really an answer. You've clarified your position, but those are some extremely broad suppositions, some justifications might be required.

Rules originally keep children safe. Don't eat the red berries. Don't jump in the water. Are those rules bad?

Those rules are usually enforced by adults for the benefits of the children, from past experiences (other adults ate the berries and got sick, drowned etc). Is all authority bad? Children need to have authority figures, it may sadden you to know. Kids instinctively look at adults and gauge how reliable they are by how other adults treat them (they are clever and able to read subtle signals between adults) and thus work out who to trust between adults. As kids get older and start exploring and the rules become more complex, they start applying to other areas, how do you define which areas are ok to apply rules and which ones arent?

In the UK there is a very old law that applies even to the modern day concerning government housing, and it goes like this - If you have a child, you can get a 2 bedroom house, if you have 2 children, you can get a 2 or 3 bedroom house depending on whether the children are the same sex or not - the point being, that boys and girls can't share a room. This is obviously from back in the day, when teenage brother used to shag his sister and produce deformed babies - it happens in nature, we put rules in place to stop it. Would this rule apply in a stateless society?

There is actually evidence that humans naturally reject authority, and strive to live autonomously. Why else would we be so individualistic?

I really don't think we are as individualistic as you believe, and that it is enforced. Yes some things are culturally enforced (capitalist/consumerist, authoritative environment if you say so), but generally speaking, kids copy their parents and other kids, parents copy each other, there are very few social pariahs. Culture "trickles down and around". Some culture (such as the concept of scarcity, and thus property, and social status associated with it) has been going on for so long (thousands of years) that it pretty much permeates each and every culture ever discovered, though to different extents. Isolated tribes have not been subjected to the kinds of marketing that bombard people in the west, but theres no doubt in my mind that if they were, they would react in much the same way. Humans all over the world tend to be fairly similar.

EDIT : There is a good documentary about where a great deal of "consumerism" in the west came from, called The Century Of The Self on youtube somewhere, its 4 parts but I highly recommend it.

[–]DiggerDingDong 0 points1 point ago*

Thats not really an answer. You've clarified your position, but those are some extremely broad suppositions, some justifications might be required.

Ok, I'll elaborate.... I'm kinda suprised you can't figure this out for yourself, but ok....

"I am a little confused, are you saying that our culture enforces the idea that there needs to be rules and that that is a bad thing?"

Prison, police, military. All these are cultural enforcements of rules. Police are used for socail controll and the protection of property. It's a bad thing because all of these are unnesesary.

Prisons don't work, period. Locking someone in a tiny cell with abusive guards will not make someone rethink the crime, especially if the "crime" they committed was something they think was just. And the people that are actually dangerous are just products of our culture and way of life; the kind of people that wouldn’t exist in an anarchist environment.

Police... Do I really even have to elaborate on them? We give them authority over everyone, except the rich, and the politicians of course....

Military are there to spread our way of life (consumer capitalism) throughout the world.

[–]shoseki[S] 0 points1 point ago

Prison, police, military. All these are cultural enforcements of rules. Police are used for socail controll and the protection of property. It's a bad thing because all of these are unnesesary.

Prison is a process that applies punishment to transgressors of the laws. Police enforce laws, they don't invent them. The military is simply a collective of force. The police, prisons and army don't get to choose what they do - they are given executive orders according to the branch of government relevant.

You say "all of these are unnecessary", but don't qualify that statement. Police enforce the laws including the protection of property - because thats what the law says. If you don't want police to enforce that, its very simple - redact the law concerning property. Police enforce the law concerning social behaviour, such as people not running around destroying and killed people - because that is the law. If you don't want them to do that, redact the law.

We don't give police authority over everyone, we give politicians authority to make decisions on our behalf and they then give authority. Yes there is corruption, but that needs to be fought head on - taking the police out of the equation simply means that the law is unenforcable, and so irrelevant, and chaos would ensue.

Military are there to spread our way of life (consumer capitalism) throughout the world.

The military do what they are told, they are simply a means. The entire world is already consumer capitalist society, as it has been for a good few hundred years - trade is "capitalism", and consumers are a natural party involved (consumer/producer dualism). I don't see how you can introduce the concept of "trade", trade has been a natural part of every society since "surplus" existed.

[–]DiggerDingDong 0 points1 point ago

I really don't think we are as individualistic as you believe, and that it is enforced. Yes some things are culturally enforced (capitalist/consumerist, authoritative environment if you say so),

“If I say so”........ How is our environment not authoritative? You have yet to back up your beliefs; it seems it’s just me defending mine. Police, military, laws, war, an economic situation you are FORCED to live under, etc.....

but generally speaking, kids copy their parents and other kids, parents copy each other, there are very few social pariahs. Culture "trickles down and around".

If we aren't as individualistic as I say, why isn’t everyone exactly like their parents? Why is it that every generation there is another social movement against the older one?

Also, are you religious?

[–]shoseki[S] 0 points1 point ago

You aren't forced to live under these situations - you can simply run into the sea or leave. The situation, the state, occupies that specific piece of land, you are more than welcome to try to find your own place to live and experiment with your own lifestyle. You are 100% free.

But you don't get to take all the amenities with you...

For the record, I'm practically an athiest, erring on agnostic purely for first cause principles, but I don't see how that is relevant...

[–]DiggerDingDong 0 points1 point ago

If you are interested in these type of tribalistic/anarchistic views I would recommend reading Civilization Will Eat Itself.

[–]thenoorys 0 points1 point ago

Is it your idea that anarchism is about going back to tribal societies, or about a state of total chaos? Did you never ever read anything on the history of anarchism? Or do you want us to try and explain it to you on a person by person basis.

[–]shoseki[S] 0 points1 point ago

My understanding of human nature and social groups, is that without rules and law & order, people do what the hell they like, which is usually pretty stupid and selfish, and includes forming small social in-groups that exhibit tribal behaviour - caring and behaving with those you are associated, and potentially harming and violating the rights of those you don't care about. Tribalism is essentially "us" vs "them" mentality, whereas the state provides a framework where we are all "us".

[–]thenoorys 2 points3 points ago

I would call that government as in (organization) not the state (institutionalized force). Anarchist are not anti-organization.

Governments can be big, small, centralized, decentralized anarchist or alternatively "archist".

A typically anarchist government would be a decentralized direct democracy. Look at roughly what the OWS movement has become and how they have effectively demonstrated(in specific isolated instances) that they can sometimes police themselves without the help of the top down US political structure or their police forces. Social contracts and basic principles like that of non-aggression can be accepted and enforced through decentralized and democratic councils of autonomous individuals without the institution of a state sanctioned legal body and police force.

[–]shoseki[S] 0 points1 point ago

Without an institionalized force, how do you enforce laws? Or are they entirely voluntary?

[–]thenoorys 1 point2 points ago*

If we're going to take everything to it's logical conclusion then all laws are already voluntary. We don't murder someone on a day to day basis, because of common decency not the fear of the police. Sure the fear of the police does provide a bit of an incentive to stay on track so to speak, but if all police were to go on strike tomorrow I would still not murder my neighbors wife. For one out of decency and for two because it is likely my neighbors would take their revenge on me. Or would they wait around for the police to come back to work?

The sociopaths who lack this common decency would perform the same under either system. For them, the state isn't a concern in the first place. As we can see.

Mix this all in with the fact that capitalism, artificial scarcity and the state amplify these anti-social behaviors and you have my basic reasonings for the rejection of the state and subscribing to a personal philosophy of anarchism.

[–]shoseki[S] 1 point2 points ago

I'm afraid I don't agree at all here... laws are no voluntary because they are enforced. Of course you can choose to break a law, but the point is that there are consequences. You may not murder people on a day to day basis, but some people do, and if there were no consequences, the law would be irrelevent (as a lot of internet laws are). And likewise your neighbours wouldn't take their revenge on you after you served your time, because they wouldn't want to serve time.

Breaking revenge cycles is another service the law provides - an eye for an eye makes the entire world blind.

[–]thenoorys 0 points1 point ago

Any society that perpetuates a revenge cycle is an insane society doomed to extinction regardless. Assuming these things doesn't make for much of a fun debate.

From what I gather is that your argument seems to amount to:

We have a state and it works(although not exactly to our liking). Now wouldn't you agree that a state works?

[–]EddyKhil 0 points1 point ago

Tribalism is essentially "us" vs "them" mentality, whereas the state provides a framework where we are all "us".

Inside the state we also see the them vs us mentality. It just creates a different "them and a different "us". In fact "government" vs "the people" is the most common one.

[–][deleted] ago

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[–]shoseki[S] 0 points1 point ago

Looking at your explanation of a tribal state I have to ask you first how is that different from today? Power is inherently down to who can control people, who is the best equipped with weapons and who can control resources. That's how the world works. The only difference between now and a few hundred years ago is that we've developed. Not in terms of technology, science or society as much as in bureaucracy.

Yes and no. The point of our social frameworks is that they bridge small communities into larger ones, from villages to towns to cities, to states, to united states, for example. You only have to hear people chant "U.S.A!" to understand how different that is from a million tiny villages all at war with each other. The USA may have enemies / go to war, but it doesn't go to war with itself.

Power still exists of course, but we have separation of power. The three main branches of the US could disagree, for example, on a key issue, and they each have roles and responsibilities to challenge each other - the president can not just do whatever he wants without comeback. You've had impeachments in the past and you'll have them in the future, laws cannot just be arbritrarily invented on a whim, there is no summary justice. You have a constitution.

The systems that are put in place to keep people in line are developed and initiated by the people who stand to gain the most from exploiting them and, more specifically, being the only ones capable of exploiting them.

If that were the case then lawyers would rule the world, but they don't. There are "controls" in place but they are mostly to maximise profit rather than subjugate people - though money is certainly power. But then, its fairly to emancipate yourself - stop caring abot the latest brands, stop equating material posession with social status etc. There, done, that was easy, and didn't require massive social upheaval.

I'd say that in any society where there is control or leadership there is subjugation and inequality but anyone with half a brain knows this. There is no form of governance which will not subjugate some group of people. It's because we live in a world built upon bureaucracy that this happens. Think about it honestly. What are the most horrible jobs people face? It's jobs that involve low pay because they can be done without training or education. People who are educated take better jobs because they pay more and while a lower paying job may be harder it will pay less because people who don't have the qualifications will be willing to compromise.

The free market often drives things like pay (though not always). Take sewer maintenance guy, for example, as a low paid but essential worker. The theory of a free market is, that if everyone suddenly became educated and no-one wanted to do that job any more, the number of available people to do that work would drop sharply, so the demand would rise, meaning that people who were willing to do that job would be able to demand a higher salary. This sort of thing already happens in Japan where people are more highly educated / richer, people don't want to be farmers, so the government has to offer incentives for people to choose that lifestyle. Their government doesn't force anyone to be a farmer...

Nobody has to do those jobs, however there is an opportunity there and if people don't have a qualifications / education, they can take advantage of it. A job is not a right, communities don't have predetermined roles and responsibilities, and people come up with all sorts of different ways to be able to create "value" and it is up to society to decide what "value" it values and what it doesn't, and it uses the free market for this. (Though I'm not denying that the free market is also up for abuse but thats another conversation.)

If we removed concepts like, mass farming of animals, oversized cities, packaging and waste and shit people immediately jump on the offensive by saying there won't be jobs but if we dismantle this to the core of what we need.

If you remove mass farming people will starve. Example : North Korea.

Farming for subsistence and share-cropping for people who can't do so we remove money from the equation.

No, you haven't removed money from the equation. All people created "value" which has to be traded between each other, so my pig is worth 3 of your chickens. Money is simply a proxy for value that has been recognised by society. Money is not "I'll get you your chicken tomorrow I promise" and then never bother because your are lazy or whatever, it is "The chicken was delivered, here is the proxy value".

I don't see what alternatives there are. You have communism which seems like a big pot that basically everybody dumps their value into (physically with produce or otherwise) but no control over their value or measurement on their value, so everyone stays permanently poor and subjugated. That to me isn't a viable alternative.

I don't see how you can ever remove "money".You could become totally self sufficient (grow your own fruits/vegetables etc) but there would always be something someone else created that you'd want to be able to trade. Money is just an extended form of bartering.

If we didn't have governments to fund military research then weapons development wouldn't happen.

No, it wouldn't happen for you, it would still happen for every other country. Unless you are saying that in order for anarchy to work, every country in the world must take part. All that would happen, is that in a few decades, you'd find yourself in the position that most third world countries have "hi, we're here to "liberate" you and help you with that stockpile of natural resources". I don't think you want to subjugate yourselves to foreign powers...

Medical and scientific research would be because it's the best interests of people.

How will you fund medical and scientific research? To be honest though, this could still do the weapons development.

How do you define what is the best interests of people? Every time someone discovers a new line of research, way the possible costs/benefits? "Oh, only 3 people have this disease, don't bother researching it".

Once we remove the concept of statehood as it is a means to cause war, make large scale resources like oil unnecessary and remove religious indoctrination as it will lead to war then we can develop peace.

As a strong agnostic, I'd be curious how you'd attempt to remove religious indoctrination. Separation of church and state had to be mandated in the US, and politicians still attempt to appeal to emotion using it. In other countries, like the UK, we just don't give a crap. Politicians don't try to appeal to religion because people would lose interest in them. What are you going to do when there is a witch hunt against atheists and there is no state to protect you and people stand by idly whilst you are hunted down?

If we remove religion and teach morality independently of it then moral justification cannot be found for atrocities. If we remove statehood then nobody can fun weapons development (for the sake of argument imagine this in a world where farming and other necessary areas exist on a self sustaining and trading level and scientific institutions but nothing else in ways of extra industry or governance.) but it will be in everyone's best interest help develop medical and agricultural sciences etc.

But this sounds like an ideal rather than a principle. People will, anyway, develop new technology and weapons, and attempt to subjugate each other anyway - you just used to be protected by a rather bullying big brother than being at the end of the uranium tipped pointy stick. But its all the same.

And just because something is in everyone's best interests doesn't mean that is how it will happen. Once again, people will disagree with each other, fight with each other and try to use what they have to better their and their "followers" situations. I don't see how you are going to build a framework to prevent this.

For a world like this to exist we must rely on education and self interned morality to become the norm.

Then you are already f£$%ed. You could get rid of laws right now if you could stop people from breaking them - but then you couldn't even get them to agree on what should be theoretical law and what shouldn't be.

Not to mention those who systematically abuse systems to get ahead.

If we completely remove anything unnecessary but hold a strong value on morality and doing good and equality only then can anarchy work but it is the only system that can work for everyone.

I tell you who that system will work excellently for - those assholes who like to abuse people and take advantage of the good will of others - you're offering them everything on a plate, without any sort of contingency plan for dealing with them. The argument is one of The Individual vs The Collective, but without a framework to protect the Collective, the Individual will come in and dominate it, State or no State.

[–]EddyKhil 0 points1 point ago

The USA may have enemies / go to war, but it doesn't go to war with itself.

The US government kills more people domestically then they do abroad. If you define war as "violence on a massive scale" then the US government is already at war with its people. (example: War on Drugs)

[–]blueblank 0 points1 point ago

I'm a big fan of the concept, but coming from a regular upbringing in today's society I have a similar (but evolving) position to yours.

There are two points:

  • 'post-scarcity' whatever form that takes is crucial. We're already approaching this (despite the machinations of those who wish to control and contain to ensure their own power). When there is enough food, electricity, etc and there is no bar to 99.99999% of the basics AND there are systems in place for easily finding a way to what is beyond the basics, any group or person that seeks to prevent this will find themselves dead or in a wheelchair or in a hospital, etc. post scarcity anarchism is really what every religion has ever promised and is what Communism was reaching toward in its first forms.

  • it is a higher-evolved system of interaction and (un)governance that requires the participation of a lot more pieces than is currently allowed by states existing

But, I'm at a lower level of understanding here. I can see your points as some I still cling to.

[–]satorinirie 1 point2 points ago

Beyond all of the philosophically differences, I think the main point is building a community based on respect. These communities would raise citizens who have healthy environments to base their lives and interactions on. The corruption and manipulation that comes from hierarchical systems, I think particularly capitalism, is a lack of respect for people as a whole and as individuals (on a psychological and physiological level), and for our environment which to me is a reflection of the health of its inhabitants.

So, without the craving and lust for power and capital we can focus on how to create healthy happy lives and communities. There would be no need to regulate because it would be cooperate with the community and its health or go find somewhere else to go because you're not working out with us. And this is direct democracy and up most personal freedom. Without a power that has its own interest in mind (mind you the growing police state proving the anxiety of the state) which is the control and manipulation of wealth and resources. So from my perspective of anarchy, it is about accepting diversity and respecting life and that which makes it better. I don't think this can be done by some "representative" gang of elites who are ever more influenced by corporate wealth and power.

When I think about anarchy I think about indigenous people and how they were connected to the mother of all anarchy whom sustains all life, the Universe and the Earth. From learning about the systems of nature, we can see the inter-connection of life, and also see how natures anarchic systems of niches and diverse environments can be put to the scale of individual and global affairs. If raised to respect our environment and our peers and selves, it will be easy to utilize the knowledge and tools available to settle into a healthy and sustainable way of life; accepting the diversity and anarchy nature, of which we are apart, and of the cultures of all people on all scales.

[–]shoseki[S] 0 points1 point ago

Beyond all of the philosophically differences, I think the main point is building a community based on respect. These communities would raise citizens who have healthy environments to base their lives and interactions on. The corruption and manipulation that comes from hierarchical systems, I think particularly capitalism, is a lack of respect for people as a whole and as individuals (on a psychological and physiological level), and for our environment which to me is a reflection of the health of its inhabitants.

So build a community, but it will always have rebels, it will always have people of every type.

If people were perfectly civilised / respectful we wouldn't necessarily even need laws. But once again, the first person who breaks the rules get an enormous benefit... its like the prisoners dilemna...

So, without the craving and lust for power and capital we can focus on how to create healthy happy lives and communities.

It doesn't necessarily rear itself always as "craving and lust for power". Finite resources are finite, and in order for me to succeed, sometimes you will have to fail. This is why there is such complexity in things such as love, for when there is only one person that both people fall in love with, one of them will inevitably be disappointed.

If you depend on lack of scarcity, this approach has already reached Star Trek levels - and even Star Trek had competition for women. Not to mention that Star Trek was essentially a dictatorship (if benevolent).

There would be no need to regulate because it would be cooperate with the community and its health or go find somewhere else to go because you're not working out with us.

Good luck with this. There will always be elements in society who don't believe the same as you. Are you always going to drive them out? Your society will dwindle to nothing, or you yourself will be driven out. This is not a recipe for everyone to live together.

You are currently living in a society with many, many people that you would have to drive out. This would then form an alternative group that potentially could later simply conquer you.

When I think about anarchy I think about indigenous people and how they were connected to the mother of all anarchy whom sustains all life, the Universe and the Earth. From learning about the systems of nature, we can see the inter-connection of life, and also see how natures anarchic systems of niches and diverse environments can be put to the scale of individual and global affairs. If raised to respect our environment and our peers and selves, it will be easy to utilize the knowledge and tools available to settle into a healthy and sustainable way of life; accepting the diversity and anarchy nature, of which we are apart, and of the cultures of all people on all scales.

But nature is not anarchic - it is almost by definition tooth and nail, a fight for survival. If an animal finds a tool or something it can use to gain dominance and access to the females, it will abuse the hell out of it - and by fathering a lot of children, will ensure that its' genes are succesfully passed on, perpetuating the abuse. Thats why we have sociopathy, because it is such an effective tool.

The only examples of "living in harmony" is species that coexist by mutual benefit - and usually that is by chance, rather than by design. A fish that cleans other fish for food is simply using the other fish as a resource, there is no control required. But then there is mimicry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleaner_fish ...

How are you going to decide what the definitions of "healthy" are? What if my culture has "cut off the ears of my neighbours" as a doctrine? How are you going to resolve differences between different tribes without going to war?

[–]satorinirie 0 points1 point ago

With a stateless system, there is room for difference in lifestyle. Depending on the community, consensus will say what is healthy and who and or what adds or takes away from the community. It will be up to everyone to decide how to handle rebels and how to create space for people of differing opinion. I don't get why some people believe that just because people are so complacent and apathetic today, then some future could hold ways of communing together beyond a state/corporate controlled system feeding biased information from media to public education from cradle to grave. If people can come together and make the current system work, I don't see why people can't come together to create a holistically functioning system that doesn't exist due to exploitation. I believe education about the history and agenda of Western culture and global corporations, and a more fulfilling lifestyle (that which you see your efforts in the community flourish) would help to get people ready to re-learn some trades and take responsibility for their own lives. In my opinion, the fight against globalization and state and corporate merger is our fight for survival, because the Earth and evolution of the human species depend on it.

[–]EddyKhil 0 points1 point ago

If people were perfectly civilised / respectful we wouldn't necessarily even need laws. But once again, the first person who breaks the rules get an enormous benefit... its like the prisoners dilemna...

The benefit is only perceived. We need to educate people that breaking laws is never in your self interest, at least not in an anarchistic society.

[–]treborr 0 points1 point ago

I think particularly capitalism, is a lack of respect for people as a whole and as individuals (on a psychological and physiological level), and for our environment which to me is a reflection of the health of its inhabitants.

"Particularly capitalism"? Haven't communist regimes killed (in the literal, literal sense, literally) millions of their own? Currently, isn't North Korea literally starving its own people.

Didn't the capitalists help to restore/transform defeated totalitarian regimes after WWII into capitalist systems that brought their people out of devastation?

Isn't the OWS movement depending on the benevolence/tolerance of capitalists for their sheer safety?

[–]satorinirie 0 points1 point ago

It doesn't matter what your economic background, the state will do whatever it must in order to protect it's self. Usually that means tyranny over the people or to distract them with spectacles of glamor and wealth. And that is what Anarchism is, a system without any form of state, hierarchy or other reasons for exploitation or in-equality.

[–]treborr 0 points1 point ago

Other than that it runs counter to human nature, it sounds great. Anarchists only thrive in states that tolerate, and protect, them.

[–]KaiusSauersIuvenis 1 point2 points ago

To me, it seems that the problem is power. Someone always has power, people always struggle to have power, and whenever there is a black hole with a lack of a power hierarchy, people compete with each other to take control of it.

Could you have an example of people competing when hierachy ends?

In some ways, it seems to be the general sociopathic nature of humanity. We compete with each other for every little thing, and even when we cooperate (such as in Open Source software), an example of where society benefits from a lack of hierarchy, we are essentially using it as a platform (to show ourselves off as developers, ego, feeling of doing something positive etc).

Explain to me why you favor this theory of the sociopathic nature of man? What do you mean when you say we only cooperate on a platform?

In my (unqualified, raw) opinion, as soon as there was no state and no police, we would return to a "tribalistic" state. Power would be wielded by whoever controlled various resources, but would be exercised by force (read : whoever had the biggest guns / biggest followings of people), people would not suddenly "get along".

What makes you think the most powerful as so malevolent as to dominate their fellow men when the immediate power structure falls? Who is so confident to do so?

How are you going to manage the assholes of society when the "£$% hits the fan and everyone is competing simply to stay alive?

How will state manage us when the shit hits the fan? What makes you think shit will hit the fan in an anarchist society? How are 50 maniacs with the most guns going to take over the rest of society?

[–]shoseki[S] -1 points0 points ago

Could you have an example of people competing when hierachy ends?

In schools, there is no hierarchy, kids are free to form their own little groups, and generally speaking, people gather around those popular kids who have the ability to motivate / influence others. These groups will compete against each other (as well as kids competing generally) and from time to time, fights will break out - kids are kids.

Adults are really not that far from kids. You might be, I might be, but society includes all kinds of people and a large % of people do not automatically "get on" - they all compete with each other and get jealous of each and all sorts of petty rivalries.

Explain to me why you favor this theory of the sociopathic nature of man? What do you mean when you say we only cooperate on a platform?

For one, evolution. Selfish people tend to be more succesful even when less talented than others - its why we have the concept of meritocracy as opposed to normal politics - because the most talented, hard working people don't rise to the top.

What makes you think the most powerful as so malevolent as to dominate their fellow men when the immediate power structure falls? Who is so confident to do so?

I'm not saying that power is so malevolent - I'm saying that its a nature part of the economics of our existence. But everybody influences everyone all the time, to be "right" (even when they aren't), to be "in charge" (even when they aren't qualified), to take the work of others (even when they don't deserve it, haven't earnt it) etc etc. These are the central themes of many dramas, playing out people's entire thought processes for all to see.

How will state manage us when the shit hits the fan? What makes you think shit will hit the fan in an anarchist society? How are 50 maniacs with the most guns going to take over the rest of society?

What I'm saying, is that in normal life within a state, the shit hits the fan each and every day. Peoples' lives are put at stake by groups or individuals who think that they know better (whether they really do or they are simply drunk or trying to control some situation) and they ignnore the law - and start fighting / killing each other over the most petty things. The shit hits the fan but we don't really notice or care about it because society has an in built immune system that takes care of the vast majority of this shit, and that immune system is called the police. But what happens when that doesn't happen?

The London Riots of last year.

People may have had the right to be pissed, some terrible events happened before that - and people decided to do whatever they wanted. And what did they do? Trashed the place, vented their frustrations in a way that damaged society for all of us.

How would an anarchist society handle that? Haven't you ever seen the large amount of dramas etc where even a single guy with a gun can control large groups of people? Of course, heroes might step up to throw down their lives to protect the general populace, but its not an organised presence.

[–]KaiusSauersIuvenis 0 points1 point ago

For one, evolution. Selfish people tend to be more succesful even when less talented than others - its why we have the concept of meritocracy as opposed to normal politics - because the most talented, hard working people don't rise to the top.

This is a fuzzy hypothosis and I don't think it's concrete enough to hold up in politics. Evolutionary psychology may be able to explain a lot of things but until I am presented with scientific evidence of this hypothosis, I can't consider to be a law of sociology. Furthermore, there are numerous ways to deal with problem with this was a law of society. Science shows that man is much more peaceful in the modern world than in ancient tribes. You seem to confuse anarchism with a lawless society. That's not the case.

What I'm saying, is that in normal life within a state, the shit hits the fan each and every day. Peoples' lives are put at stake by groups or individuals who think that they know better (whether they really do or they are simply drunk or trying to control some situation) and they ignnore the law - and start fighting / killing each other over the most petty things. The shit hits the fan but we don't really notice or care about it because society has an in built immune system that takes care of the vast majority of this shit, and that immune system is called the police.

What justifies this claim? When men are not watched, do they hate eachother with all their hearts? How many people in the modern world are willing to kill for fun or for money? Is there not violence in our modern society? Do the police really prevent such things from happening? Do you have any evidence for such claims? You are presenting us with a very simplistic view of reality and you are misusing terms when it comes to anatomy. The only groups I know that do the violent things you describe are governments.

But what happens when that doesn't happen? The London Riots of last year. People may have had the right to be pissed, some terrible events happened before that - and people decided to do whatever they wanted. And what did they do? Trashed the place, vented their frustrations in a way that damaged society for all of us.

What do you think caused this reaction? Was it not being supervised? Was it the state not having enough police? Was it the people unionizing? No, it was the state becoming too powerful and killing an innocent man. They were frustrated because they were being abused and you tell me the abuser is what brings order?

How would an anarchist society handle that?

What do you mean? Deal with what? The state couldn't deal with it by what I hear.

Haven't you ever seen the large amount of dramas etc where even a single guy with a gun can control large groups of people?

I have not. I've heard of bank robberies, but I've also heard about them being stopped and I know they can be easily stopped. I have no idea how the state can prevent that. Can you please explain that to me?

Of course, heroes might step up to throw down their lives to protect the general populace, but its not an organised presence.

What have you been watching? Where did you learn these things?

[–]shoseki[S] 0 points1 point ago

This is a fuzzy hypothosis and I don't think it's concrete enough to hold up in politics. Evolutionary psychology may be able to explain a lot of things but until I am presented with scientific evidence of this hypothosis, I can't consider to be a law of sociology. Furthermore, there are numerous ways to deal with problem with this was a law of society. Science shows that man is much more peaceful in the modern world than in ancient tribes. You seem to confuse anarchism with a lawless society. That's not the case.

Maybe this is just a personal belief, but I don't think man is 2-3 meals away from anarchy, and that is not a good thing. Perhaps there are different definitions, but that then that is what I am here to understand - what are you going to do when people riot break your laws of society? Laws are irrelevant if they are not enforced. So how are you going to get organised to enforce your laws? An anarchy police?

Society works despite the laws involved. The laws are a processing mechanism to apply detriment to those performing undesired behaviour.

What do you think caused this reaction? Was it not being supervised? Was it the state not having enough police? Was it the people unionizing? No, it was the state becoming too powerful and killing an innocent man. They were frustrated because they were being abused and you tell me the abuser is what brings order?

The police (not the state, the police are a part of the state but simply enforce law) were sloppy / corrupt and killed an innocent man. Absolutely, this is not acceptable, so what mechanisms do we have in place to "correct" this? We can't bring the man back to life. We can enact a punishment on the police involved, but by doing so sets a precident that could potentially prevent the police from properly doing their job. If the police can't do their jobs, they are irrelevant. The policemen involved can certainly be punished, removed from duty as to prevent this abuse. Is police abuse an inherant part of the system? Its possible, any authority has potential to be abused, the question is, what checks and balances are we going to put in place to monitor/prevent this abuse.

I am not saying the abuser brings order - I am saying that we created the system and its our job to debug it when elements of it go astray. It seems that you want to remove the system altogether, have no policing - how then would you enforce rules? What stops people from killing each other in the streets? Chaos would ensue, in my opinion. Tribalism.

I have not. I've heard of bank robberies, but I've also heard about them being stopped and I know they can be easily stopped. I have no idea how the state can prevent that. Can you please explain that to me?

Its a common theme. States can't necessarily prevent, they can only put systems in place to attempt to curb it - but % wise it will still happen. The question is to reduce the potential damage. Courier vans transporting large amounts of cash, for example, are not accessible by the driver, reducing the damage that can happen if / when they are attacked.

I don't see how a lack of systems solves any of these issues - it just seems that anarchism buries its' head and pretends they aren't there...

[–]KaiusSauersIuvenis 0 points1 point ago*

So how are you going to get organised to enforce your laws? An anarchy police?

Well, in the begining, probably former military men will act as the militia/police force. Let's just assume most of these men are anti-authoritarian and they are mentally sane. After a while, there will be military academies where they train in martial arts and military tactics. They would probably act in the same manner as the canadian or norwegian police force. They are a bit more relaxed and have less police brutality.

The police (not the state, the police are a part of the state but simply enforce law) were sloppy / corrupt and killed an innocent man. Absolutely, this is not acceptable, so what mechanisms do we have in place to "correct" this? We can't bring the man back to life. We can enact a punishment on the police involved, but by doing so sets a precident that could potentially prevent the police from properly doing their job. If the police can't do their jobs, they are irrelevant.

We can rehabilitate the man that killed him or just put him away. It only could keep the police from doing their job, but their job is not murdering people. It's keeping the peace and making sure hostile individuals don't hurt people.

I am not saying the abuser brings order - I am saying that we created the system and its our job to debug it when elements of it go astray.

No, that's just wrong. I did not train the police. I did not pick the officials. I have no power whatsoever. Neither do you, so stop pretending that "we" have power over the system. No society I know of reflects my values and no politician does as well.

It seems that you want to remove the system altogether, have no policing - how then would you enforce rules? What stops people from killing each other in the streets? Chaos would ensue, in my opinion. Tribalism.

No, I never said that. That's just some projection you created and you clearly haven't studied anarchist theory. Also, anarchists that believe what you seem to think I believe say that man would just be too moral to do such acts and therefore your criticism is invalid. For anarchism to work, a loving homogeneous society must form. If everyone has the same ideology, than everything will just turn out alright.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_law

90 strong and moral people can stop 10 evil psychopaths.

States can't necessarily prevent, they can only put systems in place to attempt to curb it - but % wise it will still happen. The question is to reduce the potential damage. Courier vans transporting large amounts of cash, for example, are not accessible by the driver, reducing the damage that can happen if / when they are attacked.

The state rarely acts on such issues and I don't think giving the power over these preventative measures into the hands of the same institution that has created a prison population in which half are non-volent drug offenders, the war on terror, the iraq and afgan war, the internment camps for the japanese and so on.

what are you going to do when people riot break your laws of society? Laws are irrelevant if they are not enforced

This is hard to answer because even in the highly policed nation of america, only 1 in 384 people are police. This question is just ridiculous because it deals with a vey rare and extreme scenario that not even some violent governments can handle. If 50 percent of the population begins to attack 1 percent of the population, than there is no way to stop something bad from happening. Asserting government control doesn't do much, look at the drug war. The only answers I can think of is soma gas them or shoot them all.

Maybe this is just a personal belief, but I don't think man is 2-3 meals away from anarchy, and that is not a good thing.

This is just irrational. You are using the word "anarchy" to mean "barbarism, chaos, societal collapse". This is platant evidence showing that you have a huge status quo bias and you are stereotyping. You mispelled 2 words, you strawmaned me, and you keep asking for solutions to a scenario that can even be prevented even by a government without using violent means.

[–]EddyKhil 1 point2 points ago*

Society works despite the laws involved. The laws are a processing mechanism to apply detriment to those performing undesired behaviour.

Society != State

Laws are not made by states, EVER. Laws are formed by human conflict, they evolve naturally from conflict resolution and arbitration. All laws are reactionary, they are a solution to a problem. The problem must exist before a law can be made.

A states only creates problems, not laws. If you are interest I suggest you try and learn more about medieval Iceland. It wasn't a perfect anarchy and a state eventually appeared, but its a good example of how laws are formed (without a state).

[–]EddyKhil 0 points1 point ago

For one, evolution. Selfish people tend to be more succesful even when less talented than others - its why we have the concept of meritocracy as opposed to normal politics - because the most talented, hard working people don't rise to the top.

I'm selfish and I think anarchy is the best way to fulfill my desires

All people are selfish, always.

[–]redditsuxass 1 point2 points ago

I see hierarchy in Open Source, too. Look at how the GNOME developers foisted the steaming pile of shit that is GNOME 3 on the world, and anybody who points out how much it sucks is told to STFU.

[–]schote 0 points1 point ago

It's not like you are forced to use it. ಠ_ಠ

[–]shoseki[S] 0 points1 point ago

Absolutely. Projects usually have some form of hierarchical power structure ultimately, who is able to commit etc. The same goes for projects like wikipedia - it isn't a free for all.

[–]EddyKhil 1 point2 points ago

They can almost always be forked by people seeking to get away from the hierarchy though. It depends on the license.

[–]EddyKhil 0 points1 point ago*

It's all about social change. You mention "pride" and "greed" as emotions that would make sure anarchy never works. I say we need to harness these and make them work for us.

We need to teach people that the best way to maximize their desire is to maximize the freedom of others. The feudal kings of old had plenty of power and money. But they lacked many of the luxuries even the poorer classes in western nations have today (refrigerator, microwave, tv, pc, central heating air conditioning, etc). If people are working as slaves/serfs on the fields 16h a day they don't have the time to be creative and invent great new things. Great things that might benefit YOU personally. Is it so bad if I am so "greedy" as to fund research projects only because I think they will benefit me personally?

Imagine if Leonardo da Vinci or Thomas Edison were forced to work on the fields like serfs. They wouldn't have achieved the great things they did if they didn't have some degree of freedom to do so. Who knows if the next Thomas Edison is being wasted cleaning iPhones in a sweatshop in China? The next Leonardo da Vinci starving in Africa?

And yeah I cherish the admiration of others. Is that such a sin if you consider I would to to great lengths to help others in order to "feel proud" about my accomplishments?

The way to do this is education, leading by example. Social change. When we explain and demonstrate to people that great wealth can come from cooperation and freedom, then they will be likely to act in such a way. We don't need to change human nature, we need to educate them on how freedom will serve their nature best.

Anarchy will work if people understand HOW and WHY it will work.

P.S. I am an ethical egoist and I believe that anarchy is in my self-interest. I also believe that killing, stealing, raping and enslaving people is NEVER in my self-interest. I value the things they could accomplish in the long term too much and I won't ever sacrifice someone who could be the next Edison for some short term gains.

[–]Jewboi 0 points1 point ago

"...when you mention the idea of anarchy to most people they will tell you what a bad idea it is because the biggest gang would just take over. Which is pretty much how I see contemporary society."

  • Alan Moore

[–]shoseki[S] 0 points1 point ago

And exactly how I see it too, so I am glad we are in agreement...

Except we have at least faux democracy and a police force that doesn't arbritrarily kill people in the streets on a whim (cue you linking to 0.00001% police brutality).

Why am I getting involved again, its already pretty widely known that this subreddit is batshit crazy... theres more holes in Anarchy than a Swiss cheese colander...

[–]Jewboi 0 points1 point ago

Anarchy is a tricky concept. There is not one anarchism but many. If you find it interesting, I don't think you should give up your research yet. There are a lot of batshit crazy people here, as there are everywhere.

[–]shoseki[S] 1 point2 points ago

I actually really respect this comment, I don't know why. I won't give up my research.

[–]Jewboi 0 points1 point ago

Wow, thank you!