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WTF!? One of the top submissions in /r/Libertarian encourages the reading of libcom.org. (self.Anarchism)
submitted 1 year ago by uvulfr
https://www.reddit.com/r/Libertarian/comments/em4ch/this_is_a_private_message_i_sent_to_a_reddituser/
There are also these blogs by Venezuelans that you might enjoy looking into. There's Miguel Octavio, he's a really smart Physicist, and renowned tulip aficionado. There's Alek Boyd, who I don't know much about, but I rather enjoy his posts (this link I'm sending you is outdated, but I decided against linking to any other of his sites, because this one has a great short essay on the front page). There's also this British kid, living in a slum in Caracas.
There are also these blogs by Venezuelans that you might enjoy looking into.
There's Miguel Octavio, he's a really smart Physicist, and renowned tulip aficionado.
There's Alek Boyd, who I don't know much about, but I rather enjoy his posts (this link I'm sending you is outdated, but I decided against linking to any other of his sites, because this one has a great short essay on the front page).
There's also this British kid, living in a slum in Caracas.
[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 1 year ago
Libertarians are not too far removed from anarchists. They've made a few mistakes in their premises, but they're definitely closer to anarchists than, say, Democrats or Republicans.
[–]isionous 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
As an "anarcho"-capitalist and hardcore propertarian, I feel that I am possibly farther from anarcho-socialists than the typical Democrat or Republican. Those guys usually buy into the socialist sense of fairness, use-rights, and so on more than I do. I feel I am miles away from anarcho-socialists.
I find it kind of funny that occasionally people will poke in here and ask "Do you guys really think that no government could work?". To me, the pro-state to anti-state transition is much easier to make than the propertarianism to socialism transition. But of course, I recognize that most people are not hardcore propertarians like I am, so it would be different for them.
Joke: What's the easiest way for an anarcho-socialist to turn into an "anarcho"-capitalist? Significant brain damage.
[–]Imsomniland 6 points7 points8 points 1 year ago
Meh I was in your boots once. I then started reading books outside my comfort zone and actually hanging out with poor people. One challenge to my worldview led to another challenge and before I knew it here I am a libertarian socialist.
[–]toiletsrus 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago
I agree that the pro-state to anti-state transition is an easier one because it is the one that comes first.
Sooner or later you will realize that it is impossible not to have a state if there is property/capital. :)
At least this is the path I took. There are also statist socialists who eventually realize that you can't have true socialism/communism with a state as well. Those seem to be the two most common paths to becoming an anarchist.
Or maybe people can be wrong and stay wrong their whole life.
[–]slapdash78 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago*
It appears our paths cross often ... perhaps one day you'll let me talk you out of property beyond homesteading, zero-start economic conjecture, or socialist criticisms inapplicable to decentralized collective initiatives.
Meanwhile, maybe reflect on how propertarianism is either minarchist to protect resource hoarding (and therefore potentially exploitative of worker / buyer ignorance) or indistinguishable from modern feudalism via private security-enforcers (to the wealthiest go the spoils, and those wealthy few already exist). Also, it is unreasonable to believe that profiteering industry will abandon intellectual property rights enforcement.
perhaps one day you'll let me talk you out of...
It's not like I've decided to close my mind. I'm always seeking truth. So far, I've found anarcho-socialist stuff to be unpersuasive. I'm still reading though.
[–]slapdash78 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
Oh I know, I like to think that once I mentioned Brazilian labor, you investigated for yourself. At least, I would like to leave a standing request that you do so; of which you seem willing.
[–]isionous 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago
Yes, I was quite shocked that there is still slavery in Brazil, and not just wage slavery either.
[–]sync0pate 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
What do you find unpersuasive?
Or perhaps, what do you find persuasive about "anarcho"-capitalism?
Personally, I can't imagine how anarchism can be achieved without removing capitalism, it seems a contradiction to me..
For example, when I was reading An Anarchist FAQ, one of the first things that hit me was the completely different sense of morality and fairness.
I am not at a point where I feel that I "get" what an anarcho-socialist society could look like, so I'm not to the point where I can fully dismiss it. But, from my readings, I'm so far completely unconvinced that anarcho-socialist societies could properly allocate resources without prices and property ownership. Also, everything I've read seems to completely disregard incentives. "People will spontaneously labor to produce goods that other people need." Why? "Because of a sense of mutual aid". What if I think a desire for mutual aid only goes so far and you really need to tap into people's rational self-interest to get them to produce for others? I haven't read a good response to the last question, but I'm still reading.
Also, there's a big deal about transforming work from toil into productive play. How can you turn coal mining into productive play? How can you make coal mining something that allows people to "manifest their unique artistic essences" into the product of their labor?
So, to recap: different senses of fairness, allocating resources without prices, and transforming work into productive play. Those are the big things that stick out in my mind right now.
I think that good enforcement of property rights and voluntary trade makes it so that people acting in their own self-interest will benefit themselves and others. I think it leads to good allocation of resources (in the goal of maximizing human well-being and happiness) and proper care of the environment. It also jives with my gut feelings of fairness and morality. Also, I think a market of competing providers of justice and defense have biases towards good policies and good results (and in contrast, coercive states and collective decision making in general have biases towards bad results).
[–]hakl 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago
How sneaky :).
[–]aveceasar 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
Anything wrong with that?
[–]ASFDOKJOI3123 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago
If I had to guess I'd say r/Libertarian is >90% capitalist. The site referenced is communist.
Doesn't mean you cannot read it... I hope your convictions can withstand some exposure to other views.
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[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points ago
[–]isionous 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Imsomniland 6 points7 points8 points ago
[–]toiletsrus 4 points5 points6 points ago
[–]isionous 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]slapdash78 1 point2 points3 points ago*
[–]isionous 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]slapdash78 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]isionous 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]sync0pate 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]isionous 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]hakl 4 points5 points6 points ago
[–]aveceasar 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]ASFDOKJOI3123 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]aveceasar 0 points1 point2 points ago