Freethought: Scientific pursuit of the truth.

Faith to Rationality

Mon, 15 Mar 2010 17:25:12 -0700

submitted by lsizemore
[link] [4 comments]

Zibeltor on Faith to Rationality

2010-03-16T10:32:54.393316-07:00-0700

This guy has it exactly right. People generally have an enemy-seeking behavior, and that's exactly what the New Atheist movement exemplifies. Granted, some of their claims about institutionalized religion are fair (i.e. priests that molest children should not be sheltered), but generally the discourse and methodology that they use in their effort to combat this enemy are not constructive at best, and bombastic and vitriolic at worst. Harris, for example, publicly proclaims that his mission is to marginalize fundamentalist Christians. Firstly, this wont work. Fundamentalism is far too entrenched in the US and most reasonable people don't enjoy ostracizing generally good people. Secondly, it's simply mean. I've met many fundamentalist who generally have no faults except an lack of interest in rational inquiry and an unwitting formal participation in an institution that does horrible things. That person does not deserve to be marginalized. This guy has the precisely correct method though. Attempt to understand the group you're talking to, make sure you know what they think and why they think it before you begin criticizing them. If you think you can help them, or maybe even correct them, do it out of a sense of compassion, not because you just know they're wrong.

Pilebsa on Faith to Rationality

2010-03-17T11:37:01.870589-07:00-0700

>This guy has it exactly right. People generally have an enemy-seeking behavior, and that's exactly what the New Atheist movement exemplifies. Granted, some of their claims about institutionalized religion are fair (i.e. priests that molest children should not be sheltered), but generally the discourse and methodology that they use in their effort to combat this enemy are not constructive at best, and bombastic and vitriolic at worst. All progress is based on identifying and solving a problem. People didn't sit around accentuating the positive. They pointed out things that were wrong. It's not "enemy-seeking behavior" per se, as much as it is "debugging" - identifying the problem parts, isolating them from more productive processes and replacing them. One reason why atheists are now more specifically targeting religion and religious leaders is because that's what the religious people have been doing. It's now become a necessity to attack religion in order to defend ourselves. We can't simply point out what's wrong with religion - we have to show how religious people are hypocritical liars. The people they influence are not the easiest to reason with, so sometimes pointing out the hypocrisy is a more effective method of getting the point across. If religion wasn't so hell-bent on trying to shape science and society to conform to its narrow-minded, bronze-age view of the way things should be done, there would be no need to make them into enemies, but if someone is beating you over the head, you have to fight back. >Harris, for example, publicly proclaims that his mission is to marginalize fundamentalist Christians. Firstly, this wont work. Not only does it work. It's an extremely effective method of influencing and controlling people. In fact, shame is the most powerful weapon in religious peoples' arsenals as well! The whole of Christianity is based on using shame as a tool to maintain adherents. The concept of heaven and hell is a means by which unsaved people can be institutionally marginalized. > Fundamentalism is far too entrenched in the US and most reasonable people don't enjoy ostracizing generally good people. Look at what's on TV these days. There are entire industries devoted to ostracizing people. Fundamentalism is not that entrenched in the US either. It just screams with a louder voice than the mainstream, but the vast majority of people don't buy into fundamentalism, but they're too lazy and apathetic to do anything about it until their personal rights are trampled upon. Look around you at the real world and how things work. Gone are the days in politics where the best man wins. What ends up happening in political contests is the "lesser of two evils" wins. Statistically-speaking, a candidate is better off attacking the integrity of his opponent and making the general public lose faith in his competence, than he is trumpeting his own virtues. Religious people have been doing this for hundreds of years, demonizing non-believers, and it's worked very well. Now when non-believers use the same tactic it's suddenly considered underhanded and inappropriate??

Shaper_pmp on Faith to Rationality

2010-03-16T10:19:49.277253-07:00-0700

> As far as I can tell, Christianity in the UK is moving slowly in small steps towards rationality and away from the excesses of fundamentalism that we harp about. Close. Rather - on average, in modern times - Christianity in the UK has *always* taken a more rationalist and metaphorical viewpoint on the bible than many/most religious institutions in the USA. In fact, the small, militant and much-laughed-at resurgence in creationism and fundamentalism we're currently experiencing in the UK is a very recent US import, and is viewed as being quite alien to traditional British views on religion. This article is well-written and makes some very good points, but it *does* read rather like someone who's been raised in a fundamentalist church in the American deep south who suddenly gets exposed to UK-style Church of England Christianity, and assumes it's a recent development rather than the way it's largely been for at least as long as I've been alive (30 years).

lsizemore on Faith to Rationality

2010-03-15T17:25:18.914436-07:00-0700

A Christian Holiday Camp provides opportunities for examining the non-Darwinian style of evolutionary path that faith can navigate over time.