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When Are You Dead? Science Just Made the Work of Religion a Bit More Difficult (alternet.org)
submitted 1 year ago by marquis_of_chaos
[–]ModernRonin 5 points6 points7 points 1 year ago
Someone in a vegetative state, even if they are non-responsive, is still alive. Hell, someone who blows their frontal lobes off with a shotgun, but manages to miss the brain-stem, is also still alive. (Though how long they'll stay alive with a huge hole in their head...)
It is our body that keeps us alive. And MRI scans of the brain don't prove or disprove anything about the body.
I think the article should have been titled something more like: "new MRI test offers hope for "locked-in" patients."
Also, let's not forget that you can use a statistical MRI test to prove just about anything if you're sloppy enough:
http://neuroskeptic.blogspot.com/2009/09/fmri-gets-slap-in-face-with-dead-fish.html
[–]selthera 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
I think the bigger question, though, is what do we constitute being alive?
If you have no arms, no legs, you can only be kept alive through a feeding tube, and you're in a persistant coma, is that "living"? You still age, you still do all the things that any normal person would do, except are you really living?
[–]ModernRonin 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago
I would argue that no, that's not "living".
But I would also argue that "being alive" and "living" are two very, very different things...
[–]bw1870 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
When I stop exeriencing the world around me, I'll consider my life over. However, the question then becomes, will my life continue to be over, or will some change in my state allow me to continue experiencing again? What are the odds for this? Am I pissing away other people's time and money? Can studying my current state help doctor's learn something? Based on the answers, I say let nature take its course and let me die.
[–]selthera 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
The other side of the coin is that this is an easy subject to talk about because we are in a position to do so. We really don't have anyone who can say "I've been there, I know what it's like." I imagine it would put things in perspective if we did have someone who could say what was what about being in a state such as that.
I'd agree. Once you've reached that point, would you really want to go on living that life? No.
[–]see0red 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
An even better question is what constitutes being a person. We kill living things all the time, both animal and vegetal. We draw the line at members of our human society and pull the plug on those who lose this status.
Well, given that corporations are now treated as persons, can we pull the plug on them? Once they start to fail...
[–]BevansDesign 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
Personally, I think we need to make a distinction between whether the body is alive and whether the mind is alive. Can a person still think? If you take the brain out of the body, and it's still capable of thought, that person is still technically alive.
Think of the body as just a frame that moves your brain around. If your body can't keep your brain alive, it can be acceptable to keep the brain alive by artificial means.
But then, what separates a living brain from a conscious brain? A living brain could be capable of autonomic functions, like keeping the heart beating, but if it's not conscious, it's basically a remnant, a clock that's still ticking with nobody to check the time. To me, consciousness is what a person is above all else.
So the MRI scans that allow us to see if potentially braindead (or just locked in) people can answer yes/no questions are a big help. If a person can answer yes/no questions, they're at least somewhat conscious, capable of thought.
But then the question becomes: even if a person is conscious, how conscious are they? And just because someone is conscious, that doesn't mean they can still live a good life. The questions become about quality and potential of life. Just because someone is alive doesn't necessarily mean they need to be kept alive. In the end, the decision of whether someone should be kept alive still comes down to a decision from a person's doctor, family members, and if possible, the patient. And once again, we're back onto the subject of euthanasia.
This also demonstrates another great reason why brain research is so important. If someone is conscious but locked in, being able to hook their brains up to a computer that can allow them some control over the outside world is very important. It could be as simple as giving them the ability to answer yes/no questions, to forming sentences (like Stephen Hawking, in a way), to even being able to access information via the internet.
[–]ModernRonin 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
Personally, I think we need to make a distinction between whether the body is alive and whether the mind is alive.
I agree completely.
[–]Shaper_pmp 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago
someone who blows their frontal lobes off with a shotgun, but manages to miss the brain-stem, is also still alive.
It depends how you define "someone". Some people define that as the person's body, but many think of it as their brain, or their mind.
Personally I wouldn't say someone with nothing left but a brain-stem and a bunch of autonomic functions was alive - I'd say their body was still alive, but they were dead, as their mind was dead.
Other people focus more on biological processes in the body, but to my mind a body with no mind in it is little different from an embalmed body - worthless apart from sentimental value.
It's a matter of definitions and implications. For example, if someone was decapitated and their head died, but their body was somehow kept alive by machine, would you say "that person" was still alive?
Or would you say they were dead, and only their meat-casing was being kept alive?
Equally, if you could read someone's neural structure and electrical potentials down to sufficient precision and could replicate it perfectly on a computer, would you claim that copy was "dead" because it had no biological processes remaining, or would you say the person was still alive in the computer?
If you removed a CPU from a computer but somehow kept providing power to the motherboard and components, is "the computer" still running, or are you just providing power to a bunch of functionally-worthless components?
[–]adamwho 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago
The headline doesn't really reflect the content of the article.
Being posted in this particular forum it leads the reader to suspect that science has demonstrated that the mind is an emergent property of the brain (which we already know). But instead the article is about how scientists are more accurately determining when a person actually dies and how that knowledge conflicts with some religions beliefs about when a person dies.
The article seems to skip over the issues that would be interesting to the Free Thought forum such as: the mind seems to be a function/property of the brain and no soul or substance dualism is needed to explain the mind.
[–]notfancy 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
This thread might or might not be relevant, but surely can be thought-provoking.
[–]sdbear 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
Personally I am more concerned with how I will know when I am dead.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago
I think when you die, you lose consciousness and never regain it. No pearly gate, no lake of fire, no nothing. Cremation or worm food. Done.
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[–]ModernRonin 5 points6 points7 points ago
[–]selthera 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]ModernRonin 4 points5 points6 points ago
[–]bw1870 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]selthera 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]see0red 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]selthera 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]BevansDesign 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]ModernRonin 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]Shaper_pmp 2 points3 points4 points ago
[–]adamwho 1 point2 points3 points ago
[–]notfancy 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–]sdbear 0 points1 point2 points ago
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points ago